The Incongruities of Act and Potency
Thomism is based on a system of metaphysics that Thomas Aquinas adapted from Aristotle. Aristotle posited the existence of act and potency as a means of explaining phenomena observed in the natural world. It was said that movement (which can be any of a variety of types of change) is explained as the actualization of a potency. Actualization was thought to be the fulfillment of an end or goal. Movement occurs when an object that has the property of potential with respect to a certain kind of actualization is acted upon by another object that has that actualization. Take, for example, a cold stone. It has the potential to become warm, and will do so when placed in contact with a hot stone. The movement (becoming warm) is the actualization of the potential (to become warm), and is caused by the hot stone (which is warm).
In keeping with this metaphysical system, God is said to be pure actualization (or act). God is the ultimate cause of all movement, but God himself is not moved by anything. The reason is that movement requires some potential that must be actualized. But God has no potential - he is pure act, he is perfectly fulfilled. But this belief leads to some problems, as we shall see.
In the real world, anything that moves or changes something else is itself moved or changed in the process. To realize this, note that the laws of physics absolutely require it. There is conservation of energy, which implies that energy being imparted to some object must be lost from something else. A hot stone is cooled when its heat is transferred to a cold stone. There is conservation of momentum, which implies that the movement of an object is balanced by the "equal and opposite reaction" of another object. In fact, any kind of caused change is the result mutual interaction between objects, and affects all of the involved objects. It is impossible for something that is completely immobile and immutable to cause any change at all in some other object. The idea of an unmoved mover is contradicted by the laws of physics.
One might argue that God isn't subject to the laws of physics. But what reason do we have to suppose that this kind of causation (pure act) exists at all? Aquinas claimed to be an empiricist, and that his explanation of the causes of motion are based on observation. He even claimed that belief in God can be based on a posteriori argument. Aquinas' Argument from Motion specifically claims to be based on the observation. It says: "Whatever is moved is moved by something else. Potentiality is only moved by actuality." But modern empirical observation tells us that motion is mutually caused. It is not the case that something causes motion without also being moved. So there is no empirical basis to conclude that there must be an unmoved mover, but there is good reason based in science to think that the idea of an unmoved mover is false.
Another aspect of modern physics that was unknown to Aristotle and Aquinas is the concept of inertia. To them, movement had to be sustained by a mover. Aristotle postulated a number of prime movers who were responsible for the rotation of the celestial spheres. Without their continuous efforts, that movement would stop. But science tells us that an object placed into motion will remain in motion as long as nothing else acts upon it. The idea that an object in motion must be continuously actualized raises the question: "actualized toward what end?" A planet in orbit around the sun can make billions of revolutions, and after all that, it is still in exactly the same state. What kind of actualization or fulfillment is that? It might make more sense to say that placing it in motion in the first place was the actualization, with the end being the achievement of orbit, but that would be a violation of the concept of movement. So the Thomist seems to be in a quandary. Either something is wrong with his concept of movement, or something is wrong with his concept of actualization.
Thermodynamics also refutes the idea of actualization, in the sense that the universe is destined by physics to end up in a state of "heat death". Heat death can best be described in terms of Thomistic metaphysics as the loss of all actuality. There is no form or function. But thermodynamics is not something that Aristotle or Aquinas knew about, and so they have no explanation for it. They defined movement as actualization, which is seen as the fulfillment of some end. God is pure act, and as such, he is completely fulfilled. The movement of the universe caused by God is seen as movement toward the kind of fulfillment that God provides. In the long run, the universe being moved by God must move toward an end that is actualized in God. But heat death is the opposite of that. It is the complete loss of actualization. The whole universe is in motion, to be sure. But is is moving away from actualization. Therefore, modern physics repudiates the idea that movement is actualization.
Thomistic metaphysics seems appealing to someone who wants to justify his belief in God. But don't think about it too much, because it will lead to contradictions. And while the Thomist might insist that it is completely compatible with science, he can only make that claim by ignoring the glaring inconsistencies between them. Thomists claim that their metaphysics is based on empirical observation, but science actually is based on empirical observation, and the two don't see eye to eye.
that's pretty sho9rt sighted to think that all of theism is based upon Aristotle. Christianity alone existed for a thousand years before Aquinas came along.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, Joe - you claim to be quite the scholar, but you make no effort to understand what is written. I didn't say anything that approximates "all of theism is based upon Aristotle". This article discusses one aspect of a particular brand of theism. In retrospect, I should have said Thomism or scholastic theism in the first sentence, but even the broader term classical theism does not apply to all Christians. Given your scholarly background, you should be well aware of this. Why, then, do you make a comment like that?
Deletewell I am almost blind and I have dyslexia you said Thomism and it looked like theism when I read it. sorry.
DeletePS I have never said "I am quite the scholar." I worked on a PhD and I know I don't claim to know it all.
DeleteI initially said classic theism, but I realized that's not what I meant, so I changed the first sentence to say Thomism.
DeleteSo just to be clear @im-skeptical.
DeleteYou began with a false claim.
Joe merely noted its falseness, sure perhaps being overly loose in how he did it, but no more so than you were in the first place. And in fact it's perfectly plausible he actually meant "all of classical theism" when he said "all of theism", relying on context and not precision. By contrast, your error, saying "classical theism" when you actually meant "scholastic theism" or, as it ended up, "Thomism" isn't amenable to such a innocent explanation. So where Joe's statement was perhaps merely imprecise, yours was just plain wrong. (Although perhaps you have a New Atheist Spell Checker, which saw "scholastic" and auto-corrected to "classical". Is that what happened?)
And then despite your gaff, for some reason you felt it appropriate to criticize Joe for not making an effort to understand what you had written. You chastised the poor guy so much you embarrassed him into offering you an undeserved apology via recourse to his poor sight and dyslexia when not only is it not clear he didn't understand you, its absolutely clear that *you* didn't understand you!
And all of that from the guy (oh, you're a dude; for sure you're a dude) who complains "If you want to discuss these issues, you could start by trying to get a better sense of what I understand and what I don't, rather than making the assumptions you have made about me." Did it occur to you to apply that to Joe?
So are you planning to apologize to Joe at all?
I think it's pretty clear that Joe intended to say "all of theism", based on the remainder of his comment.
DeleteAs for my post, it's also clear that I was talking about Thomism, given all the rest of the post that refers to it. The only change I made was the first word.
Yeah, your "Classical theism" clearly meant "Thomism", while there's no way that Joe's "all of theism" meant anything other than how you personally interpret that precise string of 16 characters. Sigh. You religious types, with your apologetics, and your defense of your faith. Such a shame.
DeleteHere, go read yourself some Dennett on Rapoport. He's in the same church as you I suspect, so maybe *his* words will penetrate a bit further than your pericranium. As I said elsewhere, I don't speak wombat.
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ReplyDeleteThere is a difference between observed regularities of nature (or physical laws), and man-made laws. The laws of physics, as far as we can see, have NO exceptions in all of history. Tax laws can change.
DeleteOf course, Aquinas did not argue that the prime mover was physical. But he claimed that his argument was based on observation. He saw movement as being a one-way causal process. Actuality causes movement in the potential. There was no hint of mutual causation in his arguments, that I'm aware of. That's how he could conclude that there is an unmoved mover.
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DeleteKyle,
DeleteIt's a little difficult to respond to the issues you bring up if you don't tell me what they are. You say I have made errors. You may be right, but I still don't know what you are referring to. Could you be more specific?
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DeleteKyle,
DeleteYou seem to have a problem with the fact that our scientific knowledge of nature is based on observation. Yes, I understand that inductive reasoning is subject to the possibility that the apparent regularity of the past might not continue in the future. Until those regularities prove to be false, we have pretty good justification in thinking that they're not false. And without that, we wouldn't have science at all. As someone who has doctorate-level education in science, you should understand this.
As for my failure to grok Aquinas, what makes you think that I am unaware of the four causes, or the fact that his concept of movement encompasses more than "stuff bumping into other stuff"? What you don't seem to grok is the argument I was making - an argument based on physics, which would entail that I discuss things that are subject to physical laws. Those things are certainly part of the movement that Aquinas describes. Did you hear me say that there is no other kind of movement? Did you hear me say that Aquinas was stupid? If not, then why are you assuming that I'm mistaken in my understanding of what he means?
OK, thanks. I'll start by looking at the SEP articles.
ReplyDeleteI once heard someone explain the unmoved mover's type of motion by way of analogy. These analogies are always imperfect but take this as a starting point maybe?
ReplyDeleteThe UM moves by way of pull more than push. Consider the way the Mona Lisa, a stationary painting in the Louvre, draws visitors from all around the world. In a real (though not complete) sense, the Mona Lisa is the cause of the motion of many of the museum's visitors. And yet, it sits there motionless.
Chris,
ReplyDeleteI get what you are saying, but I doubt that the Mona Lisa actually causes movement as you describe. This probably gets into the different kinds of causality, which I don't buy at all. Any kind of causation we can observe is due to physical forces and processes, which can best be described as efficient causes. The rest are only imagined as being efficacious.
"In fact, any kind of caused change is the result mutual interaction between objects, and affects all of the involved objects. It is impossible for something that is completely immobile and immutable to cause any change at all in some other object. The idea of an unmoved mover is contradicted by the laws of physics."
ReplyDeleteYou first claim cannot be confirmed. The best that can be given is that some kinds of caused changes are the result of mutual interaction and affects all objects. But even so, it is completely irrelevant. Whether an interaction affects both A and B holds no bearing on the unmoved mover argument's validity or soundness. The one thing you are assuming (which probably applies to your comments on inertia also), is that objects A and B (that interact) are able to interact as a matter of an inherent power to do so, which is false. They have no inherent power to move themselves or anything else. If they did, we would see stones levitating possibly, or just randomly heating up, but they don't. This is the reason for the unmoved mover. Without an unmoved mover, nothing moves, and so nothing interacts. We know that movement happens, so there has to be an unmoved mover.
As for the other two claims, the first is not certain, so the second isn't, plus the unmoved mover argument gives a reason for there needing to be something that immovable but can move things, un UNmoved Mover. The third I will address with inertia.
"Without their continuous efforts, that movement would stop. But science tells us that an object placed into motion will remain in motion as long as nothing else acts upon it.
The most obvious problem you have here is that Newton's principle of inertia is descriptive. It describes how objects behave. In no way is it giving an explanation as to why it behaves this way. That is what Aristotle is addressing. Remember, an object has no inherent power of movement. If it did, even if it were acted upon externally, it could just stay in the same motion, which would violate the principle of inertia. So, why do objects in motion remain in motion (until acted upon externally)? The unmoved mover is an explanation.
"The idea that an object in motion must be continuously actualized raises the question: "actualized toward what end?" A planet in orbit around the sun can make billions of revolutions, and after all that, it is still in exactly the same state. What kind of actualization or fulfillment is that? "
Actualisations do not need to be something outside of the causal link itself. The star actualizes the planets ability to change motion. You may be thinking of actualization here in terms of A causing B to actualize end C. But its more that A actualizes B, and that's it.
Here is a work by Dr. Feser that goes in to great depth regarding inertia. http://faculty.fordham.edu/klima/SMLM/PSMLM10/PSMLM10.pdf
"Thermodynamics also refutes the idea of actualization, in the sense that the universe is destined by physics to end up in a state of "heat death". Heat death can best be described in terms of Thomistic metaphysics as the loss of all actuality."
This is just silly. The heat death is not the end of actualisation. The physical universe will still be physically here, be actual, but there won't be much else.
"In the long run, the universe being moved by God must move toward an end that is actualized in God. But heat death is the opposite of that."
Actualization does not have to be permanent, and they don't have to actualize. Lions are actualizing all sorts of your natural ends right now, but eventually they will die and no longer be actual. Also, if the heat death is, as a result of causal regularities, the natural end for the universe as a whole, then that only supports that it is the natural of the universe for this to happen. It may not be, I'm just speculating. The point is that it holds no sway against the idea of actualization.
Billy,
DeleteYou first claim cannot be confirmed.
- Are you saying that physical laws can't be confirmed? As soon as you can show me an example where they don't hold, I'll believe that.
It describes how objects behave. In no way is it giving an explanation as to why it behaves this way. That is what Aristotle is addressing.
- Sorry. Science does not address the question of "why?". I am simple relating these principles to what we know about how things behave through the practice of science. To the extent they are inconsistent, you have a problem.
You may be thinking of actualization here in terms of A causing B to actualize end C. But its more that A actualizes B, and that's it.
- If B is actualized, then B is the end, and my objection remains unanswered.
The heat death is not the end of actualisation. The physical universe will still be physically here, be actual, but there won't be much else.
- So the ultimate goal of God's actualization of the universe is formless, functionless oblivion. This is just silly.
The point is that it holds no sway against the idea of actualization.
- I think Aristotle would have been very uncomfortable with this idea. What you are doing here is rationalizing in the face of new knowledge that doesn't seem fit with his concept.
Sorry, kinda wrote that in a rush. Some grammatical errors and spelling errors. My apologies.
ReplyDeletecuriomt,
ReplyDeleteCausal synonymy appears to be irrelevant to the point I made. It talks about reactive influence, but it still posits unmoved movers. So Aristotle could explain some mutual interactions as multiple instances of act/potency, but not all. Any metaphysical system that is not consistent with science must be regarded with extreme suspicion.
The pure act of the unmoved mover is an exception to the rule of causal synonymy. So we see that Aristotle had to concoct a complex way of explaining things that don't seem to fit with his system. It's like the planetary models that had epicycles and strange ways of explaining the apparent motion of planets. The scientific explanation proved to be simpler and more correct.
metacrock's blog my answer to the brain structure argument on religious experience
ReplyDeletehttp://metacrock.blogspot.com/2016/04/brain-structure-objection-to-uiversal.html
come over to CADRE and argue about resurrection
Whoa! Can someone tell him (you?) to bump up the font size by, like, five points at least? Browsers have zooms, but you don't really expect to have to use 'em!
DeleteI'll be away for the better part of the day. Feel free to comment, and I'll get to it when I can. I hope I won't be so rushed then.
ReplyDeleteHere's a question: If a metaphysics is inconsistent with actual physics does that imply that the metaphysics is wrong?
ReplyDeleteI think it does. Metaphysics is about ontology. It's about what exits, which may be in part beyond the reach of scientific investigation. Aristotle postulated that act and potency are things that have the ontological status of existence. Modern science has pretty much ruled them out, since they no longer have the explanatory power the once did. Metaphysics must be in sync with what is observable. That was the case for Aristotle, but it hasn't kept in sync since the advent of modern science that has made much of it obsolete.
Delete"In the real world, anything that moves or changes something else is itself moved or changed in the process. To realize this, note that the laws of physics absolutely require it. There is conservation of energy, which implies that energy being imparted to some object must be lost from something else. A hot stone is cooled when its heat is transferred to a cold stone. There is conservation of momentum, which implies that the movement of an object is balanced by the "equal and opposite reaction" of another object. In fact, any kind of caused change is the result mutual interaction between objects, and affects all of the involved objects. It is impossible for something that is completely immobile and immutable to cause any change at all in some other object. The idea of an unmoved mover is contradicted by the laws of physics."
ReplyDeleteAs far as I can tell this is a reasonable statement reflecting the best model we have of how the universe works. It was a model established more than 3 centuries ago by Isaac Newton (Einstein,of course, refined it). The philosophical gobbledygook should be a dim and distant memory. It's a failed model. A model that has no correspondence with how the universe actually works. Is this all religion has left? How do you know it wont all change tomorrow? How do you know you're real? How do you know that snail in the garden isn't god? Pathetic obfuscation. What is the point of all this tiresome nonsense. A desperate attempt to resurrect a long dead god.
I think it seems reasonable to anyone who isn't invested in the ancient beliefs. Thomists (a subset of Catholics) base their religion on the ancient metaphysics of Aristotle, as adapted for Christianity by Thomas Aquinas. They have a large body of apologetic literature, much of it written by Aquinas, that lays out the logical basis of their theism, all based on this. But if the metaphysics isn't valid, then their whole basis of theistic belief falls apart. That's why they are so adamant about it, and so ready to heap scorn upon anyone who tries to poke holes in it. To be sure, they have heard objections like what I have raised before, and they have come up with ways to answer most of it. But those answers fail to satisfy the skeptical intellect. There's a reason the scientific community pays no heed to Thomistic metaphysics.
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DeleteI find it difficult to understand how someone who is educated in science can fail to see that the old model is inconsistent with modern scientific knowledge. It is a failed model. As far as I know, the only people who buy it are theists.
DeleteOK. Looks like we're speaking in entirely different languages then. I doubt there's anything more useful I can say.
DeleteSkep: I think it seems reasonable to anyone who isn't invested in the ancient beliefs. Thomists (a subset of Catholics) base their religion on the ancient metaphysics of Aristotle, as adapted for Christianity by Thomas Aquinas.
DeleteFeser who champions Aristotelian-Thomist scholasticism for the Catholic cause, has caught the attention of philosophy professor Aaron Boyden, Rhode Island College> Prof Boyden critically reviews Feser's book "The Last Superstition", HEREincluding many of his defences of Aquinas. Not to put too fine a point on it, it seems whatever the influence and impact of Feser's contribution to contemporary mainstream philosophy remains marginal or peripheral at best.
This review is something that Feser and his followers might want to give some consideration. But I doubt that will happen. It seems that any criticism of Feser's views are met with a rigid unwillingness to listen. As is the case with science, philosophy has developed other ways of approaching reality. But as we see with Kyle here, they tend to take a hubristic stance. If you disagree, it is assumed that you just don't understand it. Surely, if someone like me just made the effort to learn more about it, I couldn't fail to see how it all makes sense.
DeleteKyle,
DeleteIt does seem as if we're speaking different languages. If you want to discuss these issues, you could start by trying to get a better sense of what I understand and what I don't, rather than making the assumptions you have made about me. And you need to realize that understanding something does not equate to agreeing. I don't claim to be an expert in scholastic metaphysics, but I probably know enough to be able to make some judgments about it. Maybe even enough to hold a discussion with someone like you.
It's a shame you decided to withdraw all your comments. Perhaps it would be more fruitful to drop the attitude. You can still change your mind.
It's probably worth noting that Prof. Boyden subsequently conceded that his review of Feser's book was "philosophically completely worthless".
DeleteBoyden (speaking to Feser):
Delete"Let's see, "gratuitously nasty, intellectually dishonest, and philosophically completely worthless." Sounds like a description of your book. As for my review, it was I suppose philosophically completely worthless (as I said, I plan to attend to specific arguments in future blog posts), but it was hardly intellectually dishonest and any nastiness was far from gratuitous. Do you not remember what you wrote in your book?"
He's saying that he didn't give proper philosophical rebuttals in the review, not that it is wrong.
@im-skeptical, you write:
DeleteIt seems that any criticism of Feser's views are met with a rigid unwillingness to listen.
I've been commenting on Feser's site for quite some time. I've not seen evidence of a rigid unwillingness to listen. When's the last time you commented there?
It has been some time. I never commented much there - precisely because of the hostility I encountered whenever I did. And let's be clear - it was not hostility that I initiated. In any case, it doesn't apply to everyone there. As you can see, a few of them were willing to actually discuss the issue with me here. But at his blog I was never accorded that level of respect. The participants there were generally more like what we see from Kyle here (and note that he has removed some of them). And I definitely got no respect from Feser himself - whose behavior toward me was quite petty.
DeleteWell, I'm kind of in the dark here because your experience has certainly not been mine. Would you be so kind as to provide a link wherein Feser got "petty" with you? In all the years I've read and commented on his blog, I've only seen him get testy with people who misrepresent what he says or who fail to read the post they're ostensibly replying to.
DeleteAs for others, most of them are very polite to intelligent skeptics who argue in good faith (no pun intended). Most blogs have rude posters, but they can be ignored in favor of the respectful ones. It's just one of the occupational hazards of blogging.
Bill,
DeleteWith all due respect, I think if you want to find examples of poor behavior at Feser's blog, you shouldn't have too much trouble finding them. Feser himself is notorious for his "gnu"-bashing, where he uses ad hominem and name-calling, and his followers do the same. He did the same with me. I'm sorry, but I don't keep records of all my activity on the internet. I don't recall when I first went there. But I do recall that as soon as I showed up, there were certain individuals who poisoned the well by making negative personal comments about me, and this was before any dialog had a chance to begin. It was followed by a torrent of negativity. So if your experience there has been different, that's great. But I'm not lying about my own.
@im-skeptical:
DeleteOh, I can find all kinds of examples of poor behavior on most blogs. I don't deny that. But there are also all kinds of very good posters who are willing to engage skeptics intelligently, including Feser. I am only saying that in all the years I've been there, the only times he's gotten testy or snarky are when trolls misrepresent him.
You can also find "gnu-bashing" in his book, The Last Superstition, but even there he explains that he is merely giving some atheists a taste of their own medicine.
You don't have to track down your comments on Feser's site. All you have to do is give me the handle you used while commenting there, and I can look it up myself. I tried "im-skeptical," but that yielded zero returns.
I have never used any other handle.
DeleteAs for Feser's "gnu-bashing", I think Jerry Coyne is one of his favorite whipping-boys. And yet, if you have ever listened to Coyne, you would know that he never resorts to the kind of personal attacks that Feser does. A taste of his own medicine? That's pure bullshit.
You mean like this one wherein Feser has the temerity to lambaste Coyne for criticizing a book he didn't read? Yes, the bashing was justified.
DeleteFeser has typed several posts mentioning Coyne. Most of his criticisms are, you guessed it, directed at Coyne's inability to even understand what he is criticizing. But in the linked analysis, Feser does far more than offer snark. He takes Coyne to the woodshed for his irresponsible review.
In any event, you apparently can't provide evidence from Feser's site of rank rudeness from him, and your handle fails to show up in any search.
With respect to The Last Superstition, if you read it you'll know he provides plenty of examples from the "gnus" that deserve the spanking he gives them. If you're not one of them, you have no cause to take it personally. I would think you'd be just as disgusted with ignorant, irresponsible critiques from your side as I am with mine.
@im-skeptical
DeleteInterestingly enough, and this was not at all intentional, the comments section in the link I provided contains extended dialog from a poster calling himself "dguller." He began posting on Feser's site back in 2011 and was an ardent atheist. Feser's arguments convinced him that he was wrong, and he has moved to a quasi form of theism. I used to "combat" dguller on Feser's site, so I know he wasn't bluffing. He was never mistreated by Feser (but he was grossly mistreated by Ben Yachov and others). Nonetheless, he interacted with intelligent posters and adopted many of Aquinas' arguments.
That appears to be a typical Feser hit-piece, where he mis-characterizes what Coyne writes. It was not a review of Hart's book, and it made no pretense of being one. Yet Feser tries to make it sound like that, misleading his own readers into thinking that Coyne is being less than honest, when the truth is that Feser is being less than honest.
DeleteI know for a fact that Feser has reviewed Coyne's book, and in the process, he not only misrepresents what the book says, but fails to understand at least parts of it, all the while showing not the slightest hint of charity in his interpretation of its arguments. So I don't need to hear any more of Feser cultists telling me how he has taken Coyne "to the woodshed". Feser is seriously lacking in humility.
You are, of course, the best arbiter of what you think you "need" to hear, but whether you need it or not, Feser did no misleading whatsoever in the post I linked to. He always links to the piece he's commenting on so readers can check for themselves the accuracy of his statements. Moreover, he never said that Coyne "reviewed" Hart's book. He said Coyne was "commenting" on a book that Coyne admitted he didn't read. Nothing dishonest or misleading about that whatsoever.
DeleteLook, I came across your site accidentally. I only commented because you made statements about Feser's blog. Your experience is vastly different from mine, so without accusing you of lying, I merely asked for an example of the kind of behavior you described. If you had provided one, I would have read it objectively and would have readily agreed with you if I felt his comments were "uncharitable." You either cannot or will not supply me with said evidence, so I have to suspend judgment in that regard.
While you were checking Feser's accuracy, did you happen to notice that Coyne was actually commenting on what various people had said about the book? Not the contents of the book itself. Yet, if you follow Feser's lead, you'd come away thinking that Coyne was engaging in something that was worth being "taken to the woodshed" for. He wasn't.
DeleteAnd while you were checking Feser's accuracy, did you notice that Feser replied to Coyne's words? Did you notice that the words Feser quoted were Coyne's opinions?
DeleteYes, Coyne got spanked, and deservedly so.
Yes, and the most salient point Feser made is that Coyne hadn't read the book. Here are Feser's words: Now, criticizing what a book says when you haven’t actually read it is no mean feat. do you think Feser is being honest here, when Coyne has made it perfecly clear that he isn't responding to what is in the book? But it really doesn't matter what Coyne says. Feser's venom is based who he is rather than what he says. (And by the way, your own description of all this is a strong indicator of your level of objectivity.)
DeleteOk, you don't like Feser's rebuttal, but the fact that you don't like it does not mean Feser was dishonest in any manner. Coyne was criticizing Hart's book through other people, and Feser replied to that in unmistakable terms.
DeleteYou're trying to squeeze water out of a dry well for some odd reason. The principled thing for Coyne to have done is to simply read the book and then comment. Nonetheless, he offers his opinions, and Feser rightly challenged them.
You've tried several angles of attack on Feser, and you've failed each time. You will not provide any link to an exchange between yourself and Feser, you obliquely accused Feser of falsely stating that Coyne reviewed Hart's book, and you tried to argue that Feser was somehow dishonest because Coyne was writing about the opinions of others. These allegations are weak, at best. If recognizing shoddy evidence compromises my objectivity, then so be it.
I'll state again that if you can produce one exchange between you and Feser wherein he was rude or uncharitable toward you, I will gladly say so. As atheists are fond of saying, you don't get to make baseless allegations. If you don't have the evidence, quit making the claim.
I don't care if you don't believe what I said. It's all verifiable. Feser's rudeness stems from his supremely arrogant attitude toward those who don't swallow his system of beliefs (which, by the way, has no basis in objective evidence). Obviously, you might not feel that way because he doesn't treat his own fans and disciples like that. But if you're interested in truth, then maybe you should open up your eyes and look - not from the perspective of one who buys everything he says, but from the outside. If most atheists were as arrogant as Feser, then I'd despise them, too.
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Deleteim-skeptical writes:
DeleteI don't care if you don't believe what I said. It's all verifiable.
And yet you do not verify anything. I've respectfully asked for corroboration, but all I get are steadfast refusals. Not very pretty from somebody who constantly screams "proof" at theists.
You continue:
Obviously, you might not feel that way because he doesn't treat his own fans and disciples like that. But if you're interested in truth, then maybe you should open up your eyes and look - not from the perspective of one who buys everything he says, but from the outside.
This is most regrettable. When I read your column and your subsequent comments, you seemed to be an intelligent sort with whom I could have a beneficial dialog. Well, that's been dispelled rather quickly. You've misread the links to Feser and Coyne and thus mischaracterized what was said. When called on it, you attack me as some sort of "disciple" or fanboy of Feser. I'm beginning to see why you were treated rudely on Feser's site (if, in fact, such were the case).
However, I'll at least be charitable and provide the evidence that you're reluctant to give. I'm not a fanboy of Feser. In a recent column on negative theology, Feser raised the topic of the Trinity. Of course, the doctrine of the Trinity is fundamental among most Christians and absolutely necessary for Catholics. I steadfastly reject that doctrine as unaffirmable because it is unintelligible in all its forms. I expressed that disagreement HERE. Feser now screens comments. He not only allowed my post through, he also allowed the tangential debate I had with one of the regulars. You would think that a challenge to something so fundamental would elicit the catcalls of the faithful, but I'm mostly treated with respect because I argue intelligently and in good faith.
Again, I've seen intelligent atheists like dguller treated with utmost respect by Feser and the regulars on his site (with the exception of Ben Yachov and a very few others). Ben has even spit at me several times (I just ignore him). So please dispense with this fantasy of yours that I'm some sort of disciple.
Let's just agree to disagree without your making things up to reinforce your biases.
Not very pretty from somebody who constantly screams "proof" at theists.
Delete- And I can see clearly that you are quite biased in your own assessments. Who is screaming "proof" here? It isn't me. It's you. And pleas feel free to back up YOUR assertions with evidence.
You've misread the links to Feser and Coyne and thus mischaracterized what was said.
- Well, that seems to be a matter of disagreement, doesn't it. Feser accused Coyne of "criticizing what a book says when you haven’t actually read it". That isn't my own characterization. That's exactly what he said. And it's misleading his readers, because Coyne was talking about a review of the book, having mad it clear that he didn't read the book himself. I didn't misread anything. But I think you did. You tell me that Coyne got "taken to the woodshed" and "spanked". This shows clearly that you are biased in favor of Feser, despite his lack of honesty and his raw contempt of people like Coyne.
I'll at least be charitable and provide the evidence that you're reluctant to give
- Evidence Of what? That he doesn't treat everybody the same way as I was treated? That some people get far more respect than Coyne does? That's exactly what I told you from the beginning. I never said that he didn't allow my comments. I said that I was treated poorly at his blog, which is true, and mostly by various commenters there, though not all. I said that Feser's own behavior toward me was disrespectful (including petty name-calling), and it wasn't because I came to his blog and treated the people there with disrespect. This is also true. I don't care if you don't believe me.
And now you're questioning my intelligence because I don't agree with you about what a wonderful guy he is? How typical.
im-skeptical writes:
DeleteWho is screaming "proof" here? It isn't me.
You don't insist that theists support their claims with evidence (proof)? Of course you do. You insist that without evidence, theistic arguments should be dismissed. I'm merely pointing out that you've made a claim that's been challenged. Instead of providing evidence of your claim (that you were mistreated), you refuse to provide it and say you don't care what I think. Well, isn't that the rational approach?
Feser accused Coyne of "criticizing what a book says when you haven’t actually read it". That isn't my own characterization. That's exactly what he said.
And Coyne most certainly critized a book he didn't read by relying on the opinions of others. And Feser, as I pointed out, quoted Coyne, not the others Coyne cited, and attacked Coyne's opinions, not theirs. So, there is nothing misleading whatsoever about Feser's critique. You most certainly misread Feser because you stated that he asserted that Coyne was reviewing Hart's book. Feser did not say that (why does that have to be repeated?).
Evidence Of what? That he doesn't treat everybody the same way as I was treated?
Evidence that I'm not a disciple of Feser! Are you paying attention at all to what I write? I stated that several times. If you're going to reply to what I post, please try to understand what you're replying to. I also show that presenting an opposing viewpoint on a fundamental tenet does not elicit rudeness from either Feser or the majority of that community. I'm also showing that I'm willing to back my claim with evidence, which is what you're steadfastly refusing to do.
Anyway, I'm getting tired of this. As I stated, I initially thought you were thoughtful enough to have an intelligent debate. This exchange has proved otherwise. You don't pay attention to either Feser, Coyne or myself, and you're unwilling to provide evidence of your claim that you were rudely treated. Further dialog with you is pointless. Again, if you acted this way on Feser's site, you deserved the contempt you received.
You don't insist that theists support their claims with evidence (proof)? Of course you do.
Delete- When I'm engaged in a rational discussion with a rational person, and they make an assertion as part of their argument, I often point out that their argument isn't supported by the evidence. I don't "scream proof", as you put it.
And Coyne most certainly critized a book he didn't read by relying on the opinions of others
- You are wrong. Coyne was addressing an argument as he understood it, as expressed by a reviewer. He was not criticizing the book. He made that perfectly clear, and if you weren't so blind to truth, you could see it yourself.
I initially thought you were thoughtful enough to have an intelligent debate. This exchange has proved otherwise.
- What it proves to me is that my original statement that you objected to: It seems that any criticism of Feser's views are met with a rigid unwillingness to listen. is definitely true. You certainly haven't been willing to listen to what I say, have you?
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DeleteOn the contrary, I've been all ears, but you're unwilling to supply any evidence. I've repeatedly told you that I'm willing to agree if I could but see any of your exchanges with him, but I guess you missed the multiple times I've said that.
DeleteCoyne wasn't criticizing the book? You mean he never said:
Hart claims [made in his book] that this is the conception of God that has prevailed throughout most of history, but I seriously doubt that. Aquinas, Luther, Augustine: none of those people saw God in such a way.
Not only does he directly reference Hart and his book, this is also singled out by Feser as being patently false. The fact that I have to point things like this out to you shows that you're only commenting to save yours and Coyne's faces. You're not paying attention at all.
Further proof? I didn't "object" to your "original statement." I respectfully asked for a link so that I could evaluate for myself the content of your exchanges with Feser. My experience there is completely different from yours, and I've read a good many of the replies to skeptical posters and have seen none of the rudeness you cite excepting from a few Catholic trolls.
Not only did you miss why I posted my anti-trinitarian link, you're even flubbing why I began posting here---even after careful explanation! I suggest you look in the mirror if you want to find somebody with blinders on who's unwilling to listen to opposing viewpoints.
You mean he never said: ...
Delete- Coyne was referring to a direct quote, which he obviously did read. And once again, he made it perfectly clear that he didn't read the book. His commentary, in general, was on what Burkeman wrote about the book. Don't play your stupid little quibbling games with me.
this is also singled out by Feser as being patently false.
- I think Feser is wrong. The quote was about a view of God that comes from Tillich - the ground of being that can't even be said to "exist" in the sense that we generally understand. That is a modern view, as far as I know.
Further proof? I didn't "object" to your "original statement." I respectfully asked for a link so that I could evaluate for myself the content of your exchanges with Feser.
- You didn't think what I said was true. and you still don't. That sounds like an objection to me. And you've taken issue with everything I have said in this whole exchange. As far as I can tell, you're nothing but a troll.
It is irrelevant that Coyne was referring to a direct quote about Hart's book. He was nonetheless criticizing what Hart said without reading the book. We all know Coyne didn't read the book, and Feser pointed that out in his post! You don't criticize a book you haven't read. Coyne said he would read it and had purchased a copy. He should have kept his trap shut until he could evaluate it himself. You're the one playing the "quibbling games" when it's clear Coyne was taking the opportunity to criticize a book he hadn't read. The fact that he used the comments of others to do so is all the more dishonorable.
DeleteMoreover, for the umpteenth time, Feser criticize's Coyne's opinions as expressed in his piece---not the opinions of others.
You didn't think what I said was true. and you still don't. That sounds like an objection to me.
Sigh. The definition of objection is:
1. a reason or argument offered in disagreement, opposition, refusal, or disapproval.
I did not disagree; I asked for evidence. That's called suspending judgment until the facts can be evaluated. Hence, I could not have opposed, refused to believe or disapprove of your comment since, as I clearly stated, I would readily agree once I was able to see the evidence myself. You need to learn the difference between suspending judgment and an objection.
It is irrelevant that Coyne was referring to a direct quote about Hart's book. He was nonetheless criticizing what Hart said without reading the book.
Delete- Coyne was writing about what appeared in a review. You and Feser are both trying to make that out to be something nefarious. You are both full of shit.
Moreover, for the umpteenth time, Feser criticize's Coyne's opinions as expressed in his piece---not the opinions of others
- And Coyne commented on what was related in the review. SO WHAT?
Sigh. The definition of objection is: ...
That's not THE definition. THIS is a more relevant definition, which describes what you have been doing:
n. A statement presented in opposition.
I did not disagree;
- You have disagreed with everything. You show no hint of charity in your reading of either Coyne or myself. Like Feser, you can only accept the most uncharitable understanding of it. If that's the way you insist on being, you're wasting your time here.
I am Chris, we are the same. I had to make an account to post here and you'd think I'd be better at it given how much time I spend on the web.
ReplyDelete1) With respect to Mona Lisa, I appreciate your reply. You seem to hold something like a Humean view of causality. Which is fine as far as it goes (I think it's false and so do a lot of ancient and contemporary causation theorists) but you need to realize that attacking Aristotelian metaphysics while presupposing a Humean view of causality is a bit like attacking Darwinian evolution while first having committed oneself to YEC.
By the way, this book is essentially one argument for why something like the Aristotelian (or neo-Aristotelian, whatever) view of causation must be true.
http://www.amazon.com/Causation-Very-Short-Introduction-Introductions/dp/019968443X
2) The second of those two SEP links is the really relevant one, but you touch on issues related to causal synonymy in your review so I figured I'd post it as well. Should have done so in the reverse order.
If you read Aristotle's Physics, Book 8, you get the remarkable impression that he is literally trying to find every possible way out of accepting the UM. What isn't well known is that Aristotle *gives* the principle that would later be known as Ockham's Razor in this very book. He doesn't want to multiply causes beyond what is necessary. After having examined every alternative and found them wanting, he admits there must be an UM for there to be subsequent motion. He argues that motion need not always require a mover long before he argues for the UM. I think book 4 or 5 goes into this. It's been a while since I read Physics.
"Any metaphysical system that is not consistent with science must be regarded with extreme suspicion."
ReplyDeleteWith huge caveats, mostly related to a critical and informed understanding of what "science" even is, yes I agree. This is why I admire Laval Thomism and generally don't read the other stuff. If you want to do natural philosophy or metaphysics in the 21st century you need to know your science. Period.
Having accepted your injunction, I raise you one better with a paraphrased quote from E.A Burtt
"the most dangerous metaphysician is the one blissfully unaware of his own metaphysic"
Curio
But what about Consciousness and Light, which is the Energy of Consciousness?
ReplyDeleteNone of the dreadfully sane Thomists ever talk or write Consciousness and/or the intrinsically paradoxical nature of Quantum Reality - as described in these references:
www.dabase.org/Reality_Itself_Is_Not_In_The_Middle.htm
http://spiralledlight.wordpress.com
www.beezone.com/AdiDa/EWB/lastwords.html
www.beezone.com/AdiDa/Aletheon/ancient_walkabout_way_2.html
Plus the share the same self-referring (and reinforcing) presumptions about the nature of Reality as everyone else, whether they be atheists, the ordinary man or woman in the street, or the seemingly most brilliant secular philosophers.
www.beezone.com/AdiDa/Aletheon/three_great_myths.html
I think the best we can ever hope for is to have a model of reality that is consistent with what is observable. Anyone who thinks he knows the ultimate truth is probably wrong.
DeletePeter Unger (Professor of Philosophy, NYU) seems a bit disillusioned by the philosophical approach.
ReplyDelete"What philosophers are in search of — and they don’t realize this — is generalizations that aren’t open to any conceivable possible counterexample, however far-fetched. These counter-instances don’t have to be at all realistic. So they put forth these offerings. Almost always, these offerings fail, and colleagues come up with counter-instances.
When they don’t fail, they turn out to be trivial. Virtually all of them are analytically correct, though philosophers don’t realize it. Generally, though, they’re mostly incorrect offerings, with counterexamples, and it keeps changing and keeps changing, until everyone becomes bored with the topic, and then they go on to something else.
It’s not as though anything ever gets established, except for very trivial things, nor is it that anything ever gets refuted. Rather, things become old hat and fashions change. But this general way of doing things hasn’t changed. In about seventy or eighty years, as far as I can tell, in terms of mainstream English-speaking philosophy."
He then goes on to explain that, in his view, it's only a handful of philosophers doing anything worthwhile. They're actually doing more science than philosophy.
"Tim Maudlin’s already done a similar sort of thing within himself, so that most of the time when he’s doing philosophy, he’s also doing theoretical physics. So he has a chance to do something like an amalgam of physics and metaphysics. It’s not pure philosophy, it’s very adulterated philosophy. It’s not the sort of thing where you make claims of the sort where any imaginable far-fetched scenario would count as a counterexample against it. Rather, if it’s too far-fetched, it’s irrelevant to what they’re doing.
As I say in Empty Ideas, there are very few people capable of doing work like that, at the level Tim Maudlin does it. Maybe — at any given time — five or four in the world. To do it at an adequate level, maybe another fifteen, and it’s quite a step down for the other fifteen. That’s about it. Slow but humdrum."
Full interview here: http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2014/06/philosophy-is-a-bunch-of-empty-ideas-interview-with-peter-unger.html
I agree with Unger that philosophy in the absence of science is mostly useless. You have to have a foundation of empirical knowledge before you can do much thinking about it. Pure a priori reasoning doesn't provide that foundation.
Delete"You have to have a foundation of empirical knowledge before you can do much thinking about it."
DeleteSo, there's *not* an infinitude of primes then?
What about the Cartesian cogito? Waste of space too?
Without your experience of counting objects, you would have no concept of what numbers are. With that experience, you have something you can think about.
DeleteOh gawd.
DeleteI think the "science of mind" is a good example of the progress that science can make whereas pure philosophical inquiry is pretty hopeless. The philosophers have tried and failed. They can now sit on the sidelines and watch how science does it. If we ever solve the problem of consciousness my money will be on an "Einstein of the mind" rather than a Descatres.
DeleteYes Robert. When one appreciates that the neurosciences are very much still in infancy the progress that has been made is simply remarkable. The line in many respects has been drawn in the sand; philosophers that are science savvy, that is, those that prosecute scientifically-informed philosophical inquiry are simply outstripping their scientifically-uninformed analog.
DeleteIt's a matter of time before someone creates a computer simulation of conscious intellect that is impossible to distinguish from the real thing. At that point, the last and greatest refuge for the God of the gaps and its attendant dualistic philosophy of mind will have been illuminated.
DeleteKyle's point, I think, is that we aren't exactly using empirical knowledge when we talk about infinite sets. The set of natural numbers, or real numbers, are infinite in size, with the latter having a greater cardinality than the former. How exactly could we learn about infinite sets from an empirical starting point? For large but finite sets we have easy answers: we can see that many things in the world. But for infinite sets we are in a different situation, and that is a problem since infinite sets, or something like them, seem indispensable to mathematics which seem indispensable to science.
ReplyDeleteI personally don't think empiricism in epistemology is threatened by infinite sets, nor do I think physicalism is threatened by our use of infinites.
The conception of infinite sets is a logical extension of what we know. Yes, that's where philosophy comes into play (and I think it's correct to say that mathematics is a kind of philosophy). Of course we don't observe infinite sets, because they don't exist. They are purely conceptual. If Kyle thinks he knows that these things have some kind of independent existence, I would point out that he can't possibly show me one.
Delete@Ryan M, my first reaction to your comment was "Who the hell does this Ryan person think he is, with his reasonableness, and his politeness, and his apparent willingness to assume the best of the other's position so as to engage in good, mutually-beneficial debate?" So I went via your Blogger profile to discover more (a.k.a. stalk :-) ) and found myself on http://rhetorical-bullshit.blogspot.com and just found more of the same.
DeleteIt's hard to say for sure (which I take as a good sign) whether you are an atheist or theist (or whatever), but if I had to bet, I'd go for the former. However, what seemed clearer was that you are far less concerned about which of those is correct qua correctness, and much more concerned about making sure that no matter which you eventually decide is true, you reach that decision via solid reasoning, and healthy skepticism[1]. And that's more than can be said for many -- not all -- of the "New"-er atheist type bloggers, some not a stone's throw from this comment.
Bottom line -- that's good stuff you were writing over there! Why did you stop?
Oh, and the brain-punching? Mmhmm. I get it.
--
[1] If I'm right, then I share your view, since I reckon that a good pragmatic notion of what is true Just Is that which we reach via solid reason, skeptically applied, (and, in the case of propositions concerning physical phenomena, in the context of precise, thorough, and relevant observation). That's why I personally dislike apologetics, where the apologist seems to *start* with what he already holds to be true, and then proceeds to defend it against attack. I prefer to start with something that is amenable to *attack* and try to break it. Popper, an' stuff. Of course such apologetics is not restricted to the theistically religious. Religiously-minded atheists do seem to exist, and they'll defend, defend, defend, just as ardently as Johnnie Cochran defended O.J. You probably know the kind of atheist I mean -- they're the kind who might announce their glorious apologetic crusade, their righteous defense of what they Just Know to be true, their aversion for falsification and affinity for anything that allows them to feel safe in their faith for another day, with a headline such as "Speaking out against bullshit".
And what is it that you are defending, Kyle? Your comments here have been pretty belligerent. If you care to "engage in good, mutually-beneficial debate", then why don't you act like it? We don't have to agree on things, but I'm willing to discuss it. Are you?
Delete@im-skeptical: "Your comments here have been pretty belligerent."
DeleteTo paraphrase Dick Winters in Band of Brothers:
My comments "here" have not been belligerent; just my comments to you.
You didn't answer my question. Are you willing to discuss your issues in a civil manner? If not, then piss off.
DeleteI think the best we can ever hope for is to have a model of reality that is consistent with what is observable.
ReplyDeleteI guess I am very confused. Can someone point me to the empirical tests and experiments and observations that led us to understand that logic can be used to draw valid conclusions from observations and experiments? I just don't recall experiments whose end result was "logic" or "validity". Help!
Tony,
DeleteI replied to you here. If this doesn't help, maybe I need to understand more of what you are asking.
Realistically, logic comes prior to model selection. Whatever models and methods we use to understand reality are going to be limited by whatever languages we use to describe those models with, so the languages essentially come first rather than being derived from the models/methods.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Delete"I guess I am very confused. Can someone point me to the empirical tests and experiments and observations that led us to understand that logic can be used to draw valid conclusions from observations and experiments?"
Delete"Science works ... bitch" Dawkins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3v2m4_NHhA
I never had good experiences on Feser's blog. My experiences in the past (granted they were probably 5 years ago, or possibly a bit more) were that Feser had an unfiltered blog with probable psychopaths attacking atheists or anyone who directly contradicted Thomism.
ReplyDeleteWhen I say "Psychopaths", I mean it literally. Feser has, or use to have, some fans who seemed so without empathy for anyone that the best explanation for their behaviour is some form of psychopathy.
In any case, atheists seemed to be routinely attacked unfairly, and even theists who attacked Thomism were treated as idiots. One Christian philosopher, Trent Dougherty, said some remarks that Feser's fans disliked, and rather than critique his points, they not only shit on him, but they accused him of being an atheist. Not even fellow theists could escape the verbal raping Feser's fans would give so long as the theists disliked some aspect of Thomism.
Unless things have changed, I would never recommend an atheist bother talking on Feser's or Reppert's blogs. Similarly for theists, I'd never recommend they bother talking on Loftus' blog or the Friendly Atheist blog.
I've heard similar remarks from others. With regard to Coyne, I simply don't understand Feser's behavior. Coyne never uses the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that Feser often employs, and yet if you listen to the attacks Feser (and others) direct at him, you'd think Coyne was the nastiest person around. This only encourages incivility among his fans. Reppert's articles used to make similar attacks against "gnus", but he seems to have toned it down somewhat lately.
Delete