Saturday, April 25, 2020

Defense of Hinman's Argument: Organizing Principles


Joe Hinman has posted a new article defending his "Transcendental Signifier Argument".  This is an argument for God that Joe has developed based on Jaques Derrida's philosophical concept of the "transcendent signified", and which I have criticized in a previous post of my own*.  In my review of Joe's argument, I pointed out that the argument is not logically valid, and that it is based on a gross misunderstanding of Derrida's philosophy.  I'm not going to rehash all that here.  But Joe has now provided more detail on what appears to be only the first two premises of his argument, and this alone is worthy of further discussion.  As I read through this article again, I realize that although he only discusses the first two premises, he actually is is defending the entire argument, because those two statements make his case in its entirety, and the rest are nothing more than intellectual fluffery.  I'll explain why.

First, to put it in context, let me restate Hinman's entire argument, expressed as a syllogism:

1. Any rational, coherent, and meaningful view of the universe must of necessity presuppose organizing principles (Ops)
2. OP's summed up in TS
3. Modern Thought rejects TS outright or takes out all aspects of mind.
4. Therefore, Modern thought fails to provide a rational, coherent, and meaningful view of the universe.
5. minds organize and communicate meaning
6. Therefore universal mind, offers the best understanding of TS
7. Concept of God unites TS with universal mind therefore offers best explanation for a view that is Rational, Coherent, and Meaningful (RCM). - Hinman 

OP 's make sense of the universe and explain hierarchies of conceptualization.
- Joe starts out with a definition of 'organizing principle', and he gives some examples of organizing principles: "effects need causes, conclusions are mandated by premises, meaning in language is organized by rules of grammar."  So organizing principles have to do with how meaning or understanding is structured in the mind.  This concept seems rather trivial, except for one little thing.  He makes the assertion that there must be a hierarchy (or hierarchies) of organization.  Joe never defends that assertion, nor does he present any example of how any such hierarchy would be developed.  I think it is generally understood in cognitive sciences that meaning is achieved through a web-like structure of association, rather than a hierarchy.  And this agrees with observations of brain function.  Specific clusters of cognitive function can be lost due to damage, but that isn't consistent with a hierarchical structure of conceptualization, where a whole sub-structure of the hierarchy (which could be quite large) would be dependent on a single point.  So it seems to me that this assertion of the hierarchical nature of conceptualization is unjustified, and not consistent with a scientific view of how meaning is achieved in the human brain.

Secondly, the argument is not based upon the assumption laws imply a law giver.
- Joe emphasizes that he does not equate the laws of nature to the prescriptive laws that people create, but rather, they are descriptive of the behavior of things in nature.  So physical laws are not the edicts of some law-giver.  And that's fine, but Joe does see natural laws as part of this hierarchy of organizing principles.  And that implies that they are conceptualized somehow in a mind.  And without that mind (in Joe's view), the laws of nature would not exist.  So he's being somewhat disingenuous by saying that there is no law-giver.  If they are regarded as organizing principles (as Joe seems to think), there must still be a mind that conceives the laws of nature.  The assertion that they are descriptive rather than prescriptive doesn't change that.  And it is worth noting that Joe is not just talking about the human understanding of the laws of nature.  As the discussion progresses, it becomes evident that he transitions from conceptualization of ideas to actualization in physical reality.  More on this to come.

Western thought has always assumed Organizing principles that are summed up in a single first principle (an ἀρχή) which grounds any sort of meaning: the logos or the transcendental signified (TS).
- This appears to be the basis of Joe's justification for the second premise of the argument.  The question that immediately comes to my mind is What western thought?  The Greek word 'arche' (ἀρχή) referred originally to the beginning or origin of the universe - the universe arose from the chaos in early cosmogonies.  Some Greek philosophers later used the word to refer to a "first principle".  The concept of 'logos' has certainly existed in philosophy for a long time, but it hasn't always been equated to a single over-arching principle as the ground of meaning.  It seems to be primarily in religious philosophy where it was regarded as a single ground of all meaning.  In other words, it was equated with God.  The term 'organizing principle', in modern-day usage, does not imply a "single first principle" in the sense of the logos in religious philosophy.  It is merely a central concept (one of many) around which some particular conceptual framework is built.  Note also that it does not imply a hierarchical structure, or the need for any overarching principle that ties everything together.  So while Joe can cite 320,000,000 references to the term 'organizing principle' in Google, he cannot claim that all those references mean the same thing that he does, as it is used in his argument.

... we do not have an understanding of what organizes the OP. Yet modern science still seeks a logos or a TS that would bind them all together and unite them in one over arching principle.
- Well, actually it doesn't.  Joe speaks about skeptical scientists who deny this top-level organizing principle, and implies that they don't know what they're talking about.  But Joe knows better.  He describes self-organizing structures in nature, and says that the laws of physics are organizing principles.  In fact, the remainder of the article is devoted to giving examples of organization (of structures) in nature.  He says, "There is an organizing principle grounding and influencing anything organized."  although Joe doesn't say in this article what the top-level organizing principle in science might be, he has on other occasions stated that the "theory of everything" in particle physics is what he's talking about.  And that might sound good, except that (as scientists keep trying to tell him) it isn't really the single organizing principle for all of science and everything we understand about the world.  It only applies to particle physics.  It doesn't give us any kind of grounding for understanding psychology, or chaotic dynamical systems, or mathematics, or any number of fields of human knowledge that aren't based on an understanding of particle physics.

And here's where we run into a major issue with Joe's argument.  As I mentioned earlier, Joe has morphed his discussion of organizing principles - taken from Derrida's philosophy regarding human understanding of concepts - to the physical reality of organized structures in nature, based on physical laws.  To put it another way, Joe has equivocated between organization of concepts in the mind and organization of physical structures.  He pretends that these are one and the same thing, but they aren't.  Derrida certainly wasn't talking about physics.  His concept of the "transcendent signified" would apply to organizing principles, but he denied that there was any single top-level organizing principle.  And in science there are physical laws that describe how things work in nature, but it would be a mistake to say that the conceptual human understanding of physical laws is what governs the formation of natural structures.  Joe has failed to distinguish between meaning in the mind and the underlying reality of the world.

To top it off, Joe must force-fit his own theistic beliefs into this mixed-up framework of conceptual and physical structure.  He insists that there must always be a top-level reference to which everything else is subordinate.  But that goes against what we know.  Derrida made no such assumption, and cognitive science makes no such assumption with regard to the formation of meaning.  Furthermore, scientists recognize no single top-level law that is the basis of every branch of science.  The whole idea of this single top-level reference point comes from theology.  It is the logos, or God.  And sure enough, that is exactly what Hinman means by the term "transcendental signified" - the top-level organizing principle.  His argument begs the question, as he force-fits his theistic assumptions about the single ground of meaning into the whole discussion of organization in nature.  Organizing principles implies organization.  Organization implies structure.  Structure implies hierarchy.  Hierarchy implies a top-level reference point.  The top-level reference must be God.  This is the true form of Joe's argument, and he allows no deviation from this chain of reasoning.  Could meaning be organized in a network, as science tells us, rather than a hierarchy?  Joe won't entertain the notion.  Because if he did, his question-begging argument would fall apart.

As a final note, I said that in this article Joe seems to be defending only the first two premises, and that does appear to be the case, because none of the others are mentioned or discussed in any substantial way.  Yet Joe still manages to put together his case (as illogical as it is).  What does that tell us about statements 3 through 7 of his argument?  I called them intellectual fluffery.  They don't really add anything new to the argument that wasn't already expressed or implied in the first two statements.  The whole argument could simply be replaced with this:
1. Any rational, coherent, and meaningful view of the universe must of necessity presuppose organizing principles (Ops)
2. OP's summed up in TS
3. The TS is God.



* Please see my earlier article for more information on Derrida's philosophy, and how Joe misunderstands it.

13 comments:

  1. Hinman doesn't have the courage to carry on a direct conversation with me. He won't allow me to comment at his blog, and he refuses to make any substantive comment here. But he has posted another article in response to this (here). I will reply.

    Skepie doesn't know anything about Derrida. I studied Derrida with a professor who was a student of his in Paris,.
    - That doesn't mean YOU know anything about him. You still don't get that he wrote about semiotics, and how we derive meaning from language. The terms 'signifier' and 'signified' are semiotic terms. You place undue religious significance on his writing, because you really don't know what he's talking about. In particular, you are confused by his use of the word 'transcendent', which does NOT mean the same thing as 'transcendental', so you read your own meaning into it.

    Duh! If you defend one premise you are defending the argument.
    That's true, but your article purports to be a defense of the the whole argument, and you only discuss two of its premises. Consider statements 3 and 4 of your argument. You are lamenting that modern thought eliminates mind, but the train of thought ends there. They seem to be a side-track that isn't used in the conclusion, because nothing after statement 4 depends on either statement 3 or statement 4. So those two statements can easily be removed from the argument without changing the conclusion. Likewise, statements 5, 6, and 7 are just a round-about way of saying that the TS is God (the universal mind).

    The laughable thing is he has seen the seven premises in front of his face but can't see the importance of them
    - I'm sure you have plenty to say about all this in your book, but a syllogism needs to be logically valid in its own right. If a premise does not lead to the conclusion, then it has no place in that syllogism.

    It's a syllogism in seven lines? So what if my argument was a syllogism? That does not invalidate it.
    - I did not criticize the fact that you stated your argument as a syllogism. In fact I applaud you for doing so. It formalizes the argument, and makes clear what logic you are using - or how your logic fails.

    I never said there must be hierarchies. I said there are.
    - There may be hierarchies, but it is not the case that all meaning is organized in that manner. And nobody thinks that there must be a single top-level organizing principle (which would imply that all meaning is organized into one hierarchy) - except for you and those who share your religious convictions. But that assumption is question-begging.

    He says I never defend the assertion about hierarchies the sheer ignorance of not knowing there are hierarchies of organization in nature is too stupid for words.
    - That's just an assertion, and it doesn't even help you to make your argument. Yes, there is structure in nature. How can you call that a hierarchy? You never explained that. Can you give some kind of concrete example of how natural structure fits into a hierarchy? And even if it is some kind of hierarchy, how does that relate to the organization of meaning? This is where you go off the rails by equivocating between the structure of matter and the organization of meaning in a mind - treating these two things as if they are one and the same for purposes of your argument. But they aren't.

    Your biggest problem, Joe, is that your thinking is quite muddled. You have failed to construct a coherent argument, and you could benefit greatly from a better understanding of how things actually work. A better understanding of cognitive science, in particular, would show the fallacy of your concept of the hierarchy of meaning.

    ReplyDelete
  2. After making my reply to Joe, I refreshed his post (which is linked in the first paragraph of my comment above), and discovered that it no longer exists. Therefore, the link is no longer valid.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Arguing with you is a waste of time. Clearly it's not cowardice because I've kicked your ass tie after time. You are so ignorant you don't know when you have been trounced. You do not even know the basics of Derrida.

    Here is my response to this latest drivel.



    https://christiancadre.blogspot.com/2020/06/attack-on-ts-argument.html

    ReplyDelete
  4. Skepie doesn't know anything about Derrida. I studied Derrida with a professor who was a student of his in Paris,.
    - That doesn't mean YOU know anything about him.

    means I know more than you do.

    You still don't get that he wrote about semiotics, and how we derive meaning from language.

    Of course I do you moron your understanding of thought is so simplistic I don't have to spout everything I know in in one sitting,


    The terms 'signifier' and 'signified' are semiotic terms. You place undue religious significance on his writing, because you really don't know what he's talking about. In particular, you are confused by his use of the word 'transcendent', which does NOT mean the same thing as 'transcendental', so you read your own meaning into it.

    ReplyDelete
  5. OK. It took some time to see what was going on, but here's the latest:
    Joe has modified, as well as moved his reply to me. Here is where it is now (same as Joe indicated in his comment). But not only that - he has also modified the original post that my article was referring to (which is here). In particular, he added a new section that addresses statement 3 of his argument. So when I say he didn't address that, just remember that I was talking about the article as it originally appeared. There are other changes, as well. I'm not sure how much of this re-write was prompted by my post, but this all happened after my post. One can only surmise that my commentary had some effect. But it's a shame that he doesn't acknowledge that he made changes after my commentary came out. He simply slips them in in a rather underhanded way.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Newly added statement in Joe's original article:
    I don't know who invented the term “transcendental signifier,” but Derrida took it over in a sense and made it famous. It actually refers to any universal concept in human understanding.

    - If Joe actually studied Derrida, he should be aware that his writings include the term "transcencent signified" as part of his semiotic discourse. It refers to a key concept that is an anchor-point for understanding, without dependence on other concepts. When religious people started misinterpreting his work by attaching religious significance to it, the term "transcendental signified" was coined to mock them. Derrida used that terminology in a derisive manner to mock those (liKe Joe) who don't understand what he was saying.

    ReplyDelete
  7. But not only that - he has also modified the original post that my article was referring to (which is here). In particular, he added a new section that addresses statement 3 of his argument. So when I say he didn't address that, just remember that I was talking about the article as it originally appeared. There are other changes, as well. I'm not sure how much of this re-write was prompted by my post, but this all happened after my post. One can only surmise that my commentary had some effect. But it's a shame that he doesn't acknowledge that he made changes after my commentary came out. He simply slips them in in a rather underhanded way.

    Stupid i added nothing you don't know the argument is about, you don't have the brains or the knowledge to understand it.

    ReplyDelete
  8. - If Joe actually studied Derrida, he should be aware that his writings include the term "transcencent signified" as part of his semiotic discourse.

    You idiot! You used the phrase "trasendnet signifieed" That's not Deerridian, It's Transcendental. Not transcendent,stupid. it is very imporant,

    It refers to a key concept that is an anchor-point for understanding, without dependence on other concepts. When religious people started misinterpreting his work by attaching religious significance to it, the term "transcendental signified" was coined to mock them.

    Your lite sphincter mind set lackched on to a half understood idea you can't understand it and you can't let it go. You don.t, not at all.

    Derrida used that terminology in a derisive manner to mock those (liKe Joe) who don't understand what he was saying.

    No pretentious moron you got the phrase wrong

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I suggest you actually read Derrida, instead of relying on what you heard from your religious teacher at bible college.

      Delete
  9. pretending to be smother guy so you could sneak back what does that say for your ethics?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I didn't post on your blog, and I didn't pretend to be anybody . You have been deleting someone else's comments.

      Delete
  10. I studied Derrida at PhD level at U.Texas at Dallas with Alex Argyros who was a student of Derridas. I studied him for five years, Five years.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And yet you fail to grasp that his writing referred to a "transcendent signifier", not a "transcendental signifier". The difference is very significant. I bothered to look into the literature about this and obtained an understanding of "transcendent signifier" as a term in semiotics that just doesn't have the kind of meaning you want to attach to it.

      Delete