The Atheist Apologist
Some time ago, I got into an unpleasant exchange with a guy named Tim O'Neill who calls himself an atheist, but whose attitude appears to be unreasonably hostile toward atheists. I looked at his blog, which is called History For Atheists, and found many articles that are quite critical of atheists (especially the ones he calls "New Atheists") and the historical claims they make, and none that are even slightly critical of dubious claims made by religionists. He often mocks the idea that atheists are skeptical. This struck me as rather odd, because there's no balance. He defends religious claims and beliefs, while criticizing the claims of atheists. For example, he strongly defends the idea that there was no such thing as the "dark ages", which seems to be a matter of opinion, and that the church was always supportive of the advancement of science, which I think is patently false. I'm all in favor of criticizing false claims, including those made by atheists, but this guy seems to go overboard - to the point of revealing what appears to be a clear bias in favor of religionism and against atheism. And that's why I said that I "could find no reason to think that he is anything other than a Christian who claims to be an atheist." He could well be an atheist, but he sure doesn't sound like one. His brand of skepticism seems to be highly selective.
But O'Neill isn't the only atheist I have encountered who seems to have an obnoxiously anti-atheist attitude. There's a guy who calls himself "The Spiritual Anthropologist", and he says he's an atheist, yet he has nothing but harsh words for other atheists. And at the same time, he is quite friendly toward religious beliefs. He actually came into a discussion (I won't say where) claiming without basis that all the atheists there were biased and hateful toward theists. He demanded that they produce evidence in support of their non-belief, and even claimed that they are all religious in their own right. And of course, when asked to provide evidence for some of the things he was saying about bias and hatred, he refused to back up those statements. And when asked to provide evidence for his own lack of belief, he placed himself in a different category from the rest of the atheists, claiming that he doesn't make any positive or negative belief claims like everyone else who calls himself an atheist. This is without regard to what they have actually said - he simply assumes that they're all hateful, anti-theistic believers in some kind of materialist religion. So because he doesn't make any claims, he doesn't need to provide evidence. The burden of proof is entirely theirs.
But aside from his own statements that he is an atheist, he sounds for all the world like a theist. Which is puzzling. It makes me wonder what his shtick is all about. Why does he differentiate himself from other atheists? And why is he so hostile toward them, while expressing no similar attitude toward theists or the things they believe?
I found the blog run by The Spiritual Anthropologist. He comes off sounding like a scientist (although he has only a BS in mathematics, by his own admission). And if you peruse the articles there, you will see many that seem to take an apologist position in favor of various religious beliefs. But you don't see anything that is critical of religion. Take, for example, this article defending the idea of a rational soul that is separate from the brain and would survive after the death of the body. It mirrors the unscientific concept of the "brain-as-receiver" that is popular among religionists, and shows no scientific understanding of cognition.
Yet this guy tries to make himself sound like someone with a level of scientific understanding that most atheists lack. He even espouses his own "theory of religious rejectionism", which he calls a religion in its own right. He claims that most people who call themselves atheists actually have this religion, and that idea serves as the basis for his presumptions of bias and hatred on their part. This so-called theory is based on the "seven dimensions of religioid belief", which are contrived to fit his stereotyped paradigm of the materialist/humanist/free-thinker, but somehow fails to include anything about gods or supernatural beliefs. Here's a snippet from that article:
There are some interesting aspects to American religious rejectionism that make it quite different from other religions. Besides the obvious point that the rejectionist defaults to a belief in nonexistence, the rejectionist also tends to have issues with religion and faith. Yet there is just as much faith required to sustain their religioid beliefs. This results in a complex system of ideology used to simply reconcile their own faith with the rejection of faith. - The Spiritual AnthropologistThis idea of the religious atheist sounds exactly like the standard us-against-them religionist dribble you might find in any anti-atheist blog. The only difference is that he calls himself a real atheist, which he apparently equates with making no claims one way or the other about the things we traditionally ascribe to religious belief. He doesn't claim there is no god, or that there are no souls. He is neutral on the concept of an afterlife. Apparently, by his definition of religion, if you have enough scientific understanding to justify a rejection of the supernatural, that makes you religious. Obviously, The Spiritual Anthropologist lacks any such scientific understanding.
What is the common factor between anti-atheist atheists like Tim O'Neill and The Spiritual Anthropologist? Here's my take. As far as I can tell, they both set themselves apart from the "common" atheist, and consider themselves to be superior. O'Neill regards himself as an expert in history, and is so determined to prove the common atheist wrong that he often takes the religious apologetic stance on issues that are not settled by virtue of historical fact. Similarly, The Spiritual Anthropologist regards himself as an actual anthropologist who is superior in his scientific understanding, despite the fact that he has an obviously unscientific worldview. Both of them feel justified in wielding their own self-proclaimed superiority against the common folks who call themselves atheists or skeptics, and treating them with outright hostility. In the process of doing so, they find it convenient to assume the stance of the religionist or apologist. Both of them have a serious chip on their shoulder.
"The Spiritual Anthropologist" sounded familiar, so I did some checking at the SO. He interacted with people there around 8 months ago. He essentially said that arguments from evil fail because atheism is incompatible with evil. After being showed that arguments from evil do not actually require the existence of evil, he just asserted he was familiar with the relevant literature despite it being obvious that he had no idea.
ReplyDeleteHere is a post he made on the argument from evil:
DeleteThe problem of evil
Another thing - in touting his theory of religious rejectionism, he keeps citing so-called scientific papers (non-peer-reviewed) by Daniel Goldman. I suspected that was him, but I wasn't sure. He posts in a blog called Daniel Goldman, but under the name of 'alcanthro'. So I wasn't sure if they were the same person. It turns out they are (as you can see by looking at the link in his article on Evil). Why he posts under different names in his own blog (an keeps two similar blogs under different names) is a mystery to me. I still don't know what his game is.
The Spiritual Anthropologist is making a nuisance of himself over at Bob Seidensticker's blog at the Cross Examined.
Deletehttp://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2018/05/25-reasons-we-dont-live-in-a-world-with-a-god-part-13/
Yes. He's quite a character, isn't he?
DeleteIndeed...he is causing a lot of head scratching and frustration in equal quantities over there. It was while following up on his Religion Rejectionist nonsense that I came across this blog. O'Neill had his moment over there too...but then he got the banhammer by the moderator.
DeleteSome time ago, I got into an unpleasant exchange with a guy named Tim O'Neill
ReplyDeleteYes, and considering how badly that went for you, it's remarkable that you're trying again with much of the same shtick. Yet here you are ...
"I looked at his blog, which is called History For Atheists, and found many articles that are quite critical of atheists (especially the ones he calls "New Atheists")"
So what you actually found was articles that are critical of some atheists and only on particular topics and when they get history badly wrong. Yet your kneejerk, emotional reaction means you can't manage to grasp the distinction between "some atheists in particular circumstances" and "atheists (generally)". Which really isn't very rational of you. Try harder.
[He is critical of] historical claims [these atheists] make, and none that are even slightly critical of dubious claims made by religionists.
Then it seems your weak research on me and my blog didn't extend to reading the FAQ that is prominently linked to the top of every page. It addresses this point directly:
"'Why don’t you expose distortions of history by Christians as well?'
Because there are plenty of blogs, books and online fora that do that quite well. Unfortunately, I don’t know of any other online resources by an atheist which does the same for atheist pseudo history. Given how much online atheists talk about fact-checking, objectivity, self-criticism and welcoming correction, that is very strange but it’s the case nonetheless."
Seems pretty clear and perfectly rational to me.
1/2
"For example, he strongly defends the idea that there was no such thing as the "dark ages", which seems to be a matter of opinion"
ReplyDeleteI think you'll find most questions of pre-modern history are a "matter of opinion". It's just that some opinions are better informed than others. What I actually say is (i) most historians avoid the term "the dark ages" because its loaded with nineteenth century value judgements and (ii) there was something of a dark age in the early medieval period, but it was not caused by Christianity and it did not extend until the coming of "the Renaissance". The late medieval period was actually one of innovation, remarkable economic growth, expansion and a rise in learning that laid the foundations for modern science. Yet it's the earlier period that was the one where the Church was weakest and the later period in which it was strongest and most unified. Which doesn't really fit with your dusty nineteenth century pseudo historiography. That's why, when I challenged you to produce any current historians who supported your outdated ideas you failed dismally and had to run away.
" and that the church was always supportive of the advancement of science"
I have never said anything such thing. Only that most of the examples of the pre-modern Church suppressing science are either wildly misunderstood or plain wrong. And that most of the time the Church's attitude to what we call science was either neutral or positive. Again, this is not merely my opinion but the consensus of actual historians of science.
I'm all in favor of criticizing false claims, including those made by atheists, but this guy seems to go overboard - to the point of revealing what appears to be a clear bias in favor of religionism and against atheism.
Utter bullshit.
"And that's why I said that I "could find no reason to think that he is anything other than a Christian who claims to be an atheist." He could well be an atheist, but he sure doesn't sound like one. His brand of skepticism seems to be highly selective."
And you got totally spanked on the "he's a Christian who claims to be an atheist", to the laughter of all. I can't believe you're coming back with this shit again. Get a grip. And educate yourself about history better.
2/2
Not only are you a jerk - you are a liar. I NEVER said you were a Christian.
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DeleteYou misattributed a Christian's article to me, remember? Despite it having someone else's name in the by-line. Do you really want to be spanked over all this all over again?
DeleteI told you long ago - THAT WAS A MISTAKE on my part, and I apologized for it, and I corrected it. And you have been nothing but a TOTAL DICK about the whole thing. Get over it.
DeleteOh, I'm "over it" I can assure you. But it makes a nonsense of your claim you "NEVER" said I was a Christian. You did, but when I rubbed your nose in your dumb error, you then tried this other "well, there's nothing you say that would make anyone think you're anything other than a Christian" crap. Which is also wrong and which I have also spanked you over. To the amusement of all.
DeleteDo you really want to revisit this? Are you some kind of weird masochist? Sorry, that's not quite my thing, old chap.
Cite the quote (of what I actually said). I think your main problem is that you don't know how to read.
DeleteI'm afraid I can't quote you attributing an article that was written by a Catholic apologist to me, since you edited that out of your original post after I mocked you for your dumb mistake. But anyone who looks at the article in question can see you somehow made this spectacular blunder despite the fact it carried the clear by-line “by Karlo Broussard” at the top, but also a box entitled “Written by Karlo Broussard” at the bottom – complete with an author bio containing such helpful information as “Karlo works as a full time apologist and speaker for Catholic Answers giving lectures throughout the country on topics in Catholic apologetics, theology and philosophy”.
DeleteYou then fell back on this crap:
"I did a little research on Tim O'Neill, and could find no reason to think that he is anything other than a Christian who claims to be an atheist. His articles are uniformly supportive of theists and their beliefs, and critical of atheists."
Again, your "little research" didn't extend to the FAQ on my site, which addresses my blog's focus and why I don't bother tackling Christian pseudo history as well.
And before you try any more of your usual weak wibbling on this subject - "you are exactly like an apologist" and "you are an apologist" represents a distinction without difference.
You've failed here before, so why on earth are you so determined to fail again? Get a grip.
So we have established that you don't know how to read, that you haven't ever gotten over it, and you really do need to get a grip.
DeleteOh, okay. But perhaps you can explain exactly what I haven't read properly. Because I'm afraid simply declaring this without elaboration isn't very impressive. Especially given the evidence of your bungling things given above. Try again.
DeleteYou know a debate contains intellectuals when one person speaks of another person being "spanked".
ReplyDeleteI think Skep's hypothesis is not prima facie false - that the data favors Tim being a Christian rather than an atheist.
We could try looking more deeply into the matter by looking at exactly what the relevant data is.
Datum 1 - Tim asserts he's an atheist theist.
Datum 2 - the content of Tim's posts.
Certainly Datum 1 favors Tim being an atheist. But does Datum 2 favor Tim being an atheist? Skep's position is clearly "no". I think this is fair if the content of Tim's posts seems to always criticize atheists over theists. But is this all the relevant data? I assume Tim thinks not.
To be clear, I'm not saying, and never did say, that he actually is a Christian. It's just that he seems like one. That was the point of my article. It was his review of Hannam's book that set me off. I think it was overly kind to the Christian perspective - not really balanced, from a historical perspective. And I pointed out another review of that book by an actual historian, that gives a different picture.
DeleteYou don't need to add on. It's obvious that you only asserted what you think the data suggests rather than saying he definitely is a Christian. Tim might read too much into your comments, but I'm not.
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Delete"You know a debate contains intellectuals when one person speaks of another person being "spanked"."
DeleteOr you just know that one person doesn't take the other one very seriously.
"We could try looking more deeply into the matter by looking at exactly what the relevant data is."
We went over this last time. Read the comments here, where people including ol' Skep try to pretend I don't have an online record as an atheist going back to 1992 and end up with egg on their faces. I strongly suggest you don't do the same.
"I think this is fair if the content of Tim's posts seems to always criticize atheists over theists. "
I criticise SOME atheists about SOME things. Nuance is your friend. I regularly do the same for Christians, but they are not the focus of my blog, for the reasons I've explained. What part of all that is so hard to grasp?
"Skep try to pretend I don't have an online record as an atheist going back to 1992."
DeleteWell there you have it. An admission against interest that he is a loser without a life.
"I criticise SOME atheists about SOME things."
ReplyDeleteI think this response is missing Skep's point. You seem to have two criticisms of Skep, and only 1/2 has any merit as far as basic logic goes:
Skep's criticism - If X is criticism by Tim, then there exists some atheist such that X is criticism against that atheist.
Your responses are essentially this:
Tim's First response - 1. There exists some criticisms X by Tim such that there exists some atheists that X are against, 2. There exists some atheists such that there exists no criticism X by Tim against them. 3. There exists some claims Y by atheists such that there exists no criticisms X by time against Y.
Tim's Second Response - There exists some criticisms X by Tim such that they are against some Christian.
The first response is a non starter against Skep's issue. He's saying that among your criticisms, they are only against atheists. This is not the same as saying you criticize every atheist nor that you criticize every claim made by EVERY or SOME atheists. Your first response is logically compatible with Skep's criticism being true, thus it is odd you attempt to add emphasis to the quantifier "Some".
Your second response is not without merit. If Skep's criticism is correct, then all your criticism is against atheists. If there exists some criticism against Christians, then Skep would be wrong that all your criticism is against atheists. However, this wouldn't imply that the data best favors you being an atheist over a theist. Skep could simply modify his criticism to be that "Among Tim's set of criticism C, the vast majority of the elements of C are against atheists whereas some but few elements of C are against Christians. This is evidence for Tim being a Christian rather than an atheist, so we ought to bet that Tim is a Christian rather than an atheist".
To negate the modified hypothesis, obviously you could add in what you've already mentioned (i.e., the reasons you focus on atheists over Christians such as there being many outlets criticizing Christians but few criticizing atheists).
As a side point, you might not take Skep seriously, but you've taken him seriously enough to engage him from time to time.
Do you communicate like this all the time? You must be fun at parties.
Delete"He's saying that among your criticisms, they are only against atheists."
Given that the focus of my blog is bad historical analysis by some atheists, as I've explained several times now, why is this a puzzle?
"To negate the modified hypothesis, obviously you could add in what you've already mentioned "
Why the fuck would I need to "add in" something which, as you've just said, I have already mentioned? My blog is focused on bad history by atheists. So of course it fucking focuses on atheists. What would you expect it to focus on - fucking Buddhists?
My blog is focused on bad history by atheists.
Delete- Then you should focus on yourself.
"Then you should focus on yourself."
DeleteOh, okay. And why would that be Skep? Details please. Because the last time you tried to dabble in historical analysis and then criticise me about it, things didn't end well for you. Are you going to try again? This will be fun ...
I would suggest you go back and read my original article. You NEVER answered my primary objection about the review of Hannam's book. You were too consumed with the idea that someone was critical of you. You need to stop being such a conceited snob and grow up.
Delete"You NEVER answered my primary objection about the review of Hannam's book. "
ReplyDeleteI didn't? Gosh. Considering I addressed pretty much every point you made, I wonder how I managed to miss this "primary objection". And I also wonder why you made this comment above and ... completely forgot to mention what this unaddressed "primary objection" actually was. Try doing so now.
We have already established that you can't read. This confirms it.
DeleteWeak dodge noted. Again, I went through your original post and answered it point by point, in some detail. So what "primary objection" did I somehow manage to miss?
DeleteYour reluctance to specify it makes it look like you know it was actually addressed and are now just trying to play to your (very small) peanut gallery here.
Spit it out or admit you're bluffing.
Your review ignores much of the historical reality, as indicated by Charles Freemen, who (unlike you) is a REAL historian.
DeleteFreeman is a retired high school teacher with no formal training in history or relevant qualifications. I have both. But exactly what "historical realities" do you think I "ignore"? Please summarise the top two or three such "realities". And don't dodge.
DeleteFreeman is a bit more than "a retired high school teacher with no formal training in history".
DeleteI'm done arguing with you. It is a waste of my time trying to try to discuss anything with someone like you who is so opinionated ans so stuck on your own superiority that you are utterly unwilling to consider another point of view. I urge you to heed my advice and grow up.
"Freeman is a bit more than "a retired high school teacher with no formal training in history"."
DeleteNo, he's also an amateur history writer who writes pop history books, and quite a successful one. But a "real historian" has, at the very least, a doctorate in history (as James Hannam has, for example). And a professional "real historian" has gone on from this to build an academic career: teaching in a university, writing peer reviewed books and papers and working within the rough and tumble of scholarly debate at conferences and in peer reviewed literature. Freeman isn't even close to being a "real historian". The fact you don't seem to have a grasp of who or what a "real historian" is speaks volumes.
"I'm done arguing with you. "
Yes, of course you are. This is what you always do when your bluff is called. You know how badly things ended for you the last time you tried to actually dispute my analysis on this stuff, where you ended up spinning in ever decreasing circles, madly Googling in all directions and getting increasingly confused and frustrated at your own ignorance of the relevant material. It was hilarious - though probably not for you. Thus all your dodging, bluffing and general huffing and puffing above.
So yes, run away. Again.
I'm not going anywhere. If you ever care to have an actual discussion, you know where to find me.
Delete(And by the way, your diversion into Freeman's qualifications was a nice little dodge - still refusing to address the problem.)
" If you ever care to have an actual discussion, you know where to find me."
ReplyDeleteSays the guy who, when invited to detail these "historical realities" I have supposedly "ignored", promptly clammed up. Let's have an "actual discussion" about these "historical realities". Why is it that whenever you are asked to produce something more than petualant one-liners you run away?
Oh, it's okay - I think everyone knows.
"(And by the way, your diversion into Freeman's qualifications was a nice little dodge - still refusing to address the problem.)"
"Diversion"? You are the one who introduced the idea that Freeman is "a REAL historian". I simply corrected your mistake. And the only one "refusing" anything here is you. I've asked you to detail this "real problem" and given you several opportunities to do so. But you just keep flouncing off (and then, amusingly, flouncing back again). Bluffing only works for so long, then you end up looking stupid.
Tim, I mention adding in data to ensure that it is known that Skep's modified hypothesis cannot be refuted or shown problematic by the presence of there existing some criticism against Christians. Rather, refuting the modified hypothesis requires more than stating that there exists some criticism by you such that it's against Christians since the hypothesis is logically compatible with that datum.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was worth adding for clarity purposes given that you seemed to have thought that stating you don't criticize all atheists refutes Skep's original hypothesis. What counts as probabilistic evidence against a proposition, undercutting evidence or refuting evidence is not always obvious to some people.
A big part of any religiosity is tribalness, a feeling of belonging.... Hmmm, & yeh, this post almost reads like you guys would like to excommunicate Tim for "heresy". So, in some ways, your whole effort here just seems to underline his arguments about nonreligious religionism...
ReplyDeleteOtoh, I don't see anything in his posts that contradicts the basic, and supposedly only essential, atheistic assertion that " there is no God or gods" instead of the meta-narratives that surround that assertion for most of you...
reads like you guys would like to excommunicate Tim for "heresy".
Delete- I was waiting for that comment. If I accuse anyone of heresy, it not about his atheism, or adherence to any kind of faith. It is about even-handedness and objectivity. You sound a lot like the Spiritual Anthropologist. The fact that there is significant disagreement between atheists kind of puts a hole in your theory of religious tribalism among atheists, doesn't it?
Yes, but now you've changed your tune, no longer referring to your adversary as a likely theist in disguise ....
DeleteAnd I never did. This is no change of tune. Perhaps you should read my article.
DeleteI'm all in favor of criticizing false claims, including those made by atheists, but this guy seems to go overboard - to the point of revealing what appears to be a clear bias in favor of religionism and against atheism. And that's why I said that I "could find no reason to think that he is anything other than a Christian who claims to be an atheist."
Deletefollowed immediately by:
DeleteHe could well be an atheist, but he sure doesn't sound like one. His brand of skepticism seems to be highly selective.
This is getting fucking bizarre. Again, IF YOU JUST READ MY BLOG WHICH IS FOCUSED ON BAD ATHEIST HISTORY you won't seem much criticism of Christians. But if you bother to look at the rest of my online history, AS I HAVE PROVEN HERE BEFORE, you'll see clear evidence that I am an atheist, dating back to posts on alt.atheism as long ago as 1992. I'm a paid up, long standing, subscribing member of the Australian Atheist Foundation (ask them if you like), a former state president of the Australian Skeptics and you will find NOTHING to indicate that I am anything other than an atheist, given that I AM ONE and have been one for about 30 years.
DeleteSo can you please stop this insane charade whereby you keep claiming you can "find no reason to think that he is anything other than a Christian who claims to be an atheist". Because that is utter bullshit and just makes you look like a fucking IDIOT.
Get a grip. I didn't say you are not an atheist. As long as you fail to read what I said and understand what I mean, you're the one who sounds like a fucking idiot.
DeleteWhat you said was you ""could find no reason to think that [I am] anything other than a Christian who claims to be an atheist." But plenty of evidence was given in the comments to your original post that gave any rational non-idiot plenty of reasons to conclude I am an atheist. And this has been pointed out to you again, repeatedly. So we can only conclude you are not a non-idiot. Idiot.
DeleteJeezus. I wrote those words BEFORE you provided any comments. Forget it, Einstein. Give it a rest. Buzz off.
DeleteSuppose that 99% of atheists are pro-choice. Being pro-life is logically compatible with being an atheist, but if 99% of atheists are pro-choice, then if someone claims to be pro-life we have evidence against them being an atheist (though not refuting evidence). Tim's case works the same sort of way. The data can be logically compatible with Tim being an atheist yet provide evidence against him being an atheist.
DeleteAs far as excommunication goes, I'm banned from Debunking Christianity, so that should tell you my stance.
Here's my stance on both Tim and Spiritual Anthropoligist. It has nothing to do with excommunication. They each claim an area of expertise. (In the case if Tim, there is some actual expertise - just not as much as he thinks, and in the other case, there really isn't. But that's not the point.) They each are critical of others with regard to that area of knowledge. But they mete out that criticism selectively. They reserve their venom for only one group, while defending the others. As I see it, it's hypocrisy. It shows bias.
Delete"In the case if Tim, there is some actual expertise - just not as much as he thinks"
DeleteLOL! And you're qualified to assess this, are you? How?
"They reserve their venom for only one group, while defending the others."
"Defending"? So who do I "defend"? Christianity? Show where I do this. All I defend is the objective analysis of history.
Not surprising that some people with more knowledge, in some areas tend to hold less ... um, "conveniently self-actualized" (if one hesitates to just come out and say say "self-congratulatory") opinions around certain topics than do more typical members of their sociocultural "tribes" That happens in Xianity,too, often around the topic of textual study of the scriptures, and those who express more nuanced pov's are about that topic also often called to account, often have their "tribal membership" questioned within Xian or theistic groups as well ... but, well, nonetheless, it IS still a "tribal" sort of response when that happens ....;-)
DeleteThen how about these words, genius? "He could well be an atheist, but he sure doesn't sound like one." This is garbage and you are wrong. Idiot.
ReplyDeleteDid you see the title of THIS post? Well, did you, genius?
DeleteYour words again: "He could well be an atheist, but he sure doesn't sound like one." This is garbage and you are wrong. Just admit it and move on.
ReplyDeleteBuzz off.
DeleteHaving known of and sometimes visited O'Neill's blog over the years, he is for the most part a contrarian for contrariness' sake alone. What better way to earmark or differentiate oneself from the milieux of the internet, to brand oneself as an outlier in the broader remit of atheism, the 'enemy within' if you will, than pose as the self-appointed regulator and arbiter of that deemed 'correct' or 'proper' thought in atheism.
DeleteI note a couple of testimonials on his site. One can understand the motivation behind Prof James McGrath, Butler University, a confessed Christian apologist and theologian, into providing such a reference. [For me, it smacks of, any port in a storm, even O'Neill's site, from the rising tide against religious hokum]
The writer, Tom ("It took me a long time to realise my morals are not Greek or Roman, but thoroughly, and proudly, Christian.) Holland, is a little more nuanced, but makes clear his regard for atheism:
"In the same interview he provided an insight into his own views, asserting that "Liberalism is essentially Christianity-lite, and you can include atheism and secularism in that bracket too—these are basically Christian heresies." [SEE HERE].
Dr. Richard Carrier? 'Nuff siaid. This entry in itself is instructive of the tenor and sentiment of O'Neill's site.
I came to the conclusion that the site, 'History For Atheists', is pretty Much Ado About Nothing.
That little blurb on Carrier reveals something about his agenda, which apparently isn't exactly a quest for truth and accuracy. I have also noted that he occasionally posts articles on Strange Notions, the Christian Apologetic site that is home to some of the biggest bullshit artists on the web, like Bonnette. And of course when he does, it's not to criticize any of that stuff, but once again to bash atheists (with a very friendly audience).
DeleteBy the way, your link is malformed.
"he is for the most part a contrarian for contrariness' sake alone."
DeleteGosh. Care to back that bold assertion up with evidence? Good luck.
"Prof James McGrath, Butler University, a confessed Christian apologist and theologian"
What a load of crap. McGrath is not a "theologian" and, as a very liberal Christian, he's hardly any kind of "apologist". He's a textual scholar and one respected in his field by both Christian and non-Christian peers.
"Holland, is a little more nuanced, but makes clear his regard for atheism:"
All that shows is that you don't understand what he is saying. I have no idea if Tom believes in God or not.
"Dr. Richard Carrier? 'Nuff siaid. This entry in itself is instructive of the tenor and sentiment of O'Neill's site."
It's included for laughs. Carrier is a weird little nobody and a complete joke who has to slander anyone who disagrees with him. Which is ... well, pretty much anyone with any clue about history.
"That little blurb on Carrier reveals something about his agenda, which apparently isn't exactly a quest for truth and accuracy. "
DeleteThat quote from Carrier is a proven slander, but it shows what a weird little jerk he is. But you're right, what he says is untrue.
"I have also noted that he occasionally posts articles on Strange Notions, the Christian Apologetic site "
I have never posted anything on Strange Notions in my life. Its editor once asked me if he could repost an article from my blog on Mythicism, which I allowed, but I have declined requests to write anything specifically for that site. So much for "truth and accuracy".
I have never posted anything on Strange Notions in my life. Its editor once asked me if he could repost an article from my blog on Mythicism, which I allowed, but I have declined requests to write anything specifically for that site. So much for "truth and accuracy".
Delete- Contributor Tim O'Neill in Strange Notions
Carrier has a thing or two to say about O'Niell's scholarship.
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ReplyDeleteSorry about the failed link. HERE IT IS under the Sub- Heading: Islam.
ReplyDeleteO'Neill: "McGrath is not a "theologian""
ReplyDeleteThat's interesting. I guess his Bachelor of Divinity degree was all focussed on ancient history.
And the last time I referred to a dictionary, a:
theologian [ θɪəˈləʊdʒ(ə)n,θɪəˈləʊdʒɪən], noun: was 'a person who engages or is an expert in theology.'
It is also interesting to note this Google web entry:
Religion Prof: The Blog of James F. McGrath - The Blog of Dr. James F ...
www.patheos.com/blogs/religionprof
1 day ago - Theologian and educator James McGrath mixes everything from Star Wars to the New Testament in an entertaining thought-provoking blog.
Clearly, we're not talking about the same person. Right?
O'Neill: "All that shows is that you don't understand what he is saying. I have no idea if Tom believes in God or not."
A deflection, an obfuscatory red herring. Who cares whether Holland believes in supernatural superstition or not? That wasn't the matter in question nor the point. But he clearly does have a professed view about atheism, a view transfixed in time that does not comport with the significantly increasing trend towards irreligiosity, most particularly pronounced in Western societies, a view drifting into irrelevancy, as humanity transits to a Post-christian era.
For someone who claims to be focussed on objective discourse about the inadequacies of general atheist scholarship, it is curious to note the degree of emotive charge redolent through your various articles. You wear your contrarian heart too large on your sleeve.
"I guess his Bachelor of Divinity degree was all focussed on ancient history. "
DeleteAll of his published work is on the historical analysis of ancient texts, mainly Christian ones, but also Jewish and Mandean documents.
"Clearly, we're not talking about the same person. Right?
"
He has a theology degree because that's the faculty you study in if you want to specialise in NT textual studies. His academic work is purely textual analysis and the study of the contexts of those works.
"But he clearly does have a professed view about atheism, a view transfixed in time that does not comport with the significantly increasing trend towards irreligiosity, most particularly pronounced in Western societies, a view drifting into irrelevancy, as humanity transits to a Post-christian era."
I'll pass that on to him next time we speak. I'm sure he'll find that blast of pompous flatulence hilarious.
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DeleteWhy would you even suggest that McGrath is not a theologian or "as a very liberal Christian, he's hardly any kind of "apologist"?
DeleteIt's not as though your credibility and plausibility as a biblical history interlocutor hinges heavily on attempting to drive as big a distance possible between McGrath's research focus and his beliefs. Those bona fides were self-compromised a while ago, around the time your writing melded apologetical theological pablum as historical fact.
So why do it?
Of course he is a christian apologist. He is a defender of the faith:
"So why am I a Christian? A short answer would be that it was within a Christian context that I had a life-changing religious experience. But given that I do not espouse Biblical literalism and inerrancy, some might ask whether I am still a Christian, and my answer would be that taking the whole Bible seriously is certainly no less Christian than quoting it selectively while pretending to believe it all and take it all literally." SEE HERE
He has it all; the ubiquitous cathartic revelatory 'life-changing' christian experience, idiomatically understood in christian-speak as experiencing 'the inner witness of the Holy Spirit', and that benchmark against which his level of seriousness in taking the Bible [with a capital B] 'seriously' being equivalent to, and no less, than that of a selective-quoting literalist. What an odd intellectual criterion or scholarly standard by which he measures his seriousness?
You defence of McGrath, pretending he is neither a theologian nor an apologist, is simply misguided, a bit wrongheaded and rather risibly silly.
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DeleteI suggest you read the comments.
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DeleteI'd like to hear you make your own arguments instead of just being an apologist for O'Neill.
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DeleteO'Neill might not have written an article specifically for for that biased dump Strange Notions, but he gave permission for his work to be used on a Catholic apologist site...and he pitched up there in the comments section. We are talking semantics here.
DeleteTSA: There are a couple of issues here. First, I never claimed that I ONLY have a BS in mathematics. Second, the article on the soul does not defend the concept of a rational soul. I do not believe in a soul. It simply points out errors in arguments AGAINST the existence of souls. There is nothing wrong with pointing out flawed arguments, and unfortunately there are very few atheists who point out such flawed arguments made by other atheists.
ReplyDeleteAre you speaking on behalf of the Spiritual Anthropologist?
DeleteHe says: "I do not believe in a soul." Yet in the referenced article, he says "I don’t believe in an afterlife. I don’t believe that an afterlife does not exist." As I pointed out, he apparently takes a strictly neutral stance. So when he says he doesn't believe in a soul, he means that he is agnostic on the matter. And anyone who makes a claim one way or the other is religious, by his reckoning. My comment on that position was that anyone who believes he has sufficient scientific knowledge to reject the existence of supernatural things like souls would be deemed to be religious on that basis. Which is bullshit.
I am The Spiritual Anthropologist.
Delete> As I pointed out, he apparently takes a strictly neutral stance.
Correct. My stance is neutral when it comes to questions which have no evidence in either direction, and which do not require one to take a position.
> And anyone who makes a claim one way or the other is religious, by his reckoning.
Not quite. A religion requires what I call a "religioid" belief, however such a belief is not enough to be a religion. A religion also requires a system of other cultural elements, integrated with the religioid belief. https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/xqduv/
> My comment on that position was that anyone who believes he has sufficient scientific knowledge to reject the existence of supernatural things like souls would be deemed to be religious on that basis. Which is bullshit.
Well, that would be a cultural framework integrated with a religioid belief, so I suppose that would be a religion. A counter argument might be an actual scientific justification for why there are no supernatural things, but science only takes naturalism as axiomatic. It ASSUMES naturalism. It doesn't justify naturalism.
Hmm. Another of your non-peer-reviewed papers that present your own ideological views in the guise of scientific analysis. I can't help but notice that you are making plenty of assertions about the religious nature of atheists. And those assertions, combined with your own ideological views, would qualify as religious by your own analysis. So you appear to be at least as religious (and probably much more so) as those you castigate for the crime of rejecting traditional religious beliefs based on a scientific understanding of reality.
Delete> Hmm. Another of your non-peer-reviewed papers that present your own ideological views in the guise of scientific analysis.
DeleteFirst off, an absence of peer review does not invalidate the results of a paper. Systematic review even recognizes that ignoring grey literature can be deadly. You're using a genetic fallacy.
Second, what "ideological views?" Every scientist has their own views. They generally consider the theories that they're working on to be true. So what? Do you have any argument against the actual statements made in the paper? Please do not say that you're skeptical when in reality you just seem to be close minded.
> And those assertions, combined with your own ideological views, would qualify as religious by your own analysis.
Do you have any indication that the views that I possess, which are justified through scientific investigation, constitute the expression of a belief with the cognitive signatures that I mentioned in the above paper?
Now, do you reject Sam Harris' findings that there is an apparent difference between religious and nonreligious belief? Yes or no?
You're using a genetic fallacy.
Delete- Maybe. Maybe not. Peer review exists for a reason. It validates scientific work. I wouldn't be so brazen as to say that something isn't legitimate science simply because it hasn't been peer-reviewed. However, it is undeniably true that non-reviewed publications are the refuge of pseudo-scientists and charlatans who wish to pass their own views off as legitimate science, when in fact they aren't. In your case, I have read a number of your articles, and what I see is a decidedly UNSCIENTIFIC approach to understanding reality. It is mostly just opinionated assertion, lacking any substantial supporting evidence.
Second, what "ideological views?"
- Let's start with your idiotic theory of "religious rejectionism". I am not forgetting how you barged into a discussion among atheists, and started making accusations against everyone there (such as how they "hate" religion), without even bothering to find out what their actual attitudes and beliefs were. You obviously have some ideological agenda, and you are pressing to fit everyone into that mold. A more scientific approach would be to observe first, and then formulate a hypothesis that fits the observations you make.
Please do not say that you're skeptical when in reality you just seem to be close minded.
- Your theory is unscientific bunkum. I know that because I spent time looking at what you have written, and I see no evidence that you actually follow established scientific method.
Do you have any indication that the views that I possess, which are justified through scientific investigation, constitute the expression of a belief with the cognitive signatures that I mentioned in the above paper?
- Actually, I have read more than that. There are numerous studies, similar to the one you cited, that show that these signatures are not indicative of religious beliefs in particular, but of a wider pattern of thinking that includes any strongly held beliefs that are challenged. So the observation is that when you challenge religious beliefs, you get this signature, and when you try to tell someone with a deep scientific understanding that there are fairies and other supernatural entities, you get a similar signature. The mistake you make is to equate all of that with religion. But as you pointed out in the paper, it is important to have an understanding of what religion is. You clearly don't. You have misappropriated Smart's seven dimensions of religious belief, and simply ignored the ones that don't fit your theory. OK, fine - if you want to have your own definition of religion that disagrees with what the rest of the world understands it to mean. But then to try to force-fit people into a mold of your own making - that is prima facie evidence of your own ideological agenda. Not at all scientific.
> - Maybe. Maybe not. Peer review exists for a reason. It validates scientific work
DeleteThe reason peer review exists is that it helps monopolize research. It does not allow you to ignore any research which is not peer reviewed, and as I already pointed out, doing so can be deadly.
Here's some more info on the topic of peer review and its flaws: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420798/
You fail to actually speak to the content of the paper itself. If you are unable to grasp the material in the paper, then just say so. I will try to explain it to you. But rejecting a paper because it is not peer reviewed is quite literally a genetic fallacy. Systematic review already recognizes that we cannot ignore grey literature.
> Let's start with your idiotic theory of "religious rejectionism"
Specifically what is idiotic about it. What are the flaws in the model of religion that I presented, and the analysis of cognitive and cultural traits which I used to include Religious Rejectionism as a religion, based on the aforementioned model?
> Your theory is unscientific bunkum. I know that because I spent time looking at what you have written, and I see no evidence that you actually follow established scientific method.
From what I can tell, you don't know anything about scientific investigation. There is no single established scientific method, first off, and it absolutely does not include limiting analysis of information to sh*t that was peer reviewed.
> Actually, I have read more than that. There are numerous studies, similar to the one you cited, that show that these signatures are not indicative of religious beliefs in particular, but of a wider pattern of thinking that includes any strongly held beliefs that are challenged.
Sure, but we recognize that there is a distinction between those beliefs and knowledge based positions. Yes? Now, I included other research as well, further indicating that there is a concept of a religion-LIKE belief. I did not say that such a belief alone was enough. That's why I integrated it with Smart's seven dimensions of religion.
In any case, I am tired of arguing this material with an uneducated analysis person who is incapable of and unwilling to understand the topic.
Note: I updated my profile and linked it to the Google+ profile.
DeleteThe reason peer review exists is that it helps monopolize research.
Delete- That's what all the science deniers (like creationists) say.
You fail to actually speak to the content of the paper itself.
- Bullshit. I said you misinterpret the scientific data (which is true). You misappropriated the dimensions of religious belief, ignoring the ones that don't fit your theory. After stating how important it is to have a definition, you never did provide a clear definition of what constitutes "religioid beliefs" in your own model. You just make up your own theory, but don't conduct any testing or analysis to show that this theory actually fits reality better than other models of religion. This is very similar to what other pseudo-scientists do. Lots of scientific-sounding talk. No science.
From what I can tell, you don't know anything about scientific investigation. There is no single established scientific method, first off, and it absolutely does not include limiting analysis of information to sh*t that was peer reviewed.
- I didn't say that. But you have followed NO kind of scientific method. And it is true that all kinds of bullshit artists take the same approach as you, and defend it with similar claims.
Sure, but we recognize that there is a distinction between those beliefs and knowledge based positions. Yes?
- Actually, the studies in this area make no such distinction. Therefore, you have no basis for the assertions you make.
In any case, I am tired of arguing this material with an uneducated analysis person who is incapable of and unwilling to understand the topic.
- Good. I don't really want to argue with yet another scientific ignoramus. I had enough of that with Hinman.
> - That's what all the science deniers (like creationists) say.
ReplyDeleteMaybe. But it's also what people who understand peer review and academia say, and I provided citation to justify that point, including recognition that systematic review must take into account grey literature. If you're not familiar with systematic review, I might suggest the Coursera course on the topic: https://www.coursera.org/learn/systematic-review/
> I said you misinterpret the scientific data (which is true).
Exactly how?
> You misappropriated the dimensions of religious belief, ignoring the ones that don't fit your theory.
There are two separate papers. First off, let's start with the one modeling religion itself. What are the flaws with that paper?
> After stating how important it is to have a definition, you never did provide a clear definition of what constitutes "religioid beliefs" in your own model.
I most certainly did. I specifically addressed the existence of cognitive signatures, which are indicative of religious belief, as opposed to mundane knowledge based positions. I call those beliefs indicated by those signatures "religion-like" or "religioid" beliefs.
> You just make up your own theory, but don't conduct any testing or analysis to show that this theory actually fits reality better than other models of religion. This is very similar to what other pseudo-scientists do. Lots of scientific-sounding talk. No science.
You wouldn't know science if an apple hit you on the head. You're some anonymous uneducated toad. So aside from your own lack of ability to understand this topic, there's really no problem here. Could the theory be made more robust? Absolutely. But it's still a theory which is consistent with the body of evidence, and which has made successful predictions, and which is useful at making predictions.
> I didn't say that. But you have followed NO kind of scientific method. And it is true that all kinds of bullshit artists take the same approach as you, and defend it with similar claims.
No; that's you.
> Actually, the studies in this area make no such distinction. Therefore, you have no basis for the assertions you make.
They actually do. Apparently you can't understand a research paper. From Harris' paper: " Here we show that while religious and nonreligious thinking differentially engage broad regions of the frontal, parietal, and medial temporal lobes—and, hence, appear quite distinct as modes of thought—the difference between belief and disbelief appears to be content-independent."
> - Good. I don't really want to argue with yet another scientific ignoramus. I had enough of that with Hinman.
You mean you are tired of talking to yourself? You see, I actually have a significant formal education in science. Do you? I'm a supposed science denier who has spent tens of thousands of ours studying these topics. But you are... what? Really. Stop hiding behind a veil of anonymity, especially when you choose to attack a well educated person's understanding of science.
And no; I don't hide who I am. https://danielgoldman.us/index.php/curriculum-vitae/
I have my reasons for not revealing too much information online. If you don't like it, tough shit.
DeleteI went through this same crap with Hinman, who thinks that because he was in a doctorate program (where he never got his degree), he is superior. He studied "History of Ideas", and that makes him some kind of scientific genius. The fact is, he knows very little about science. Yet, he goes around acting as if he is the big-time expert, and dismissing whatever others have to say, even though they are more educated in science than he is. And you are rather like him.
Now, based on your educational credentials, you are no anthropologist. I see you have an associate's degree in engineering, so that counts foe something, I suppose, and a BS in mathematics. Let me tell you something, sonny-boy. I have a real education in hard-core science, both under-graduate, and post graduate. And yes, I have degrees (in science) at both levels. And I have worked professionally in scientific endeavors for many years. I don't go around lording my own credentials over others, unless they start acting all uppity, like you and Hinman have. So don't give me your shit about education.
Judging from what you have written, I can see that you don't even have a scientific perspective. You remain agnostic on spiritual matters and metaphysical questions of material or immaterial reality, despite a wealth of scientific information that clearly tips the scales. And it seems to me that this is a deliberate effort to avoid any accusations of "religioid beliefs" that you apply to others who do have a scientific perspective.
As for your theory of "religious rejectionism", I still don't see any scientific defense of it. Your strained effort to force-fit atheists into Smart's seven dimensions of religion (as seen here), is a pathetic joke. Defining National Day of Reason as religious ritual? Defining a Darwin fish as an object of worship? Give me a break.
> I went through this same crap with Hinman, who thinks that because he was in a doctorate program (where he never got his degree), he is superior.
DeleteI don't think that I am superior to you because of my education, but my understanding of these topics is more detailed and I have the foundation necessary to understand the topics; you do not.
> Now, based on your educational credentials, you are no anthropologist.
And a minor in anthropology, graduate course work on the topic, completed two field schools, etc.
> Let me tell you something, sonny-boy. I have a real education in hard-core science, both under-graduate, and post graduate.
Considering that you remain anonymous, I can literally throw out that claim. Seems like you barely managed to pass high school science courses. Regardless, if you think that remaining agnostic on supernatural positions is not scientific, then you have a problem. Science makes NO CLAIM regarding supernatural phenomenon. It literally requires the axiom of naturalism, and if there is a supernatural claim, science is mute.
Furthermore, I have provided citation to multiple peer reviewed fMRI studies indicating that there is a cognitive signature which is indicative of religious belief, and that religious belief has a different cognitive signature than mundane knowledge. It's just that I go further. I do not say that such a cognitive signature is enough to identify religion. Only when such a belief is integrated with a cultural framework of elements as indicated by Smart's seven dimensions of religion do we have an actual religion.
> Your strained effort to force-fit atheists into Smart's seven dimensions of religion (as seen here), is a pathetic joke.
First off, you're confusing Religious Rejectionists with atheists. An atheist is not necessarily a Religious Rejectionist. A Religious Rejectionist holds a belief that there are no gods, afterlives, etc, and has a cultural framework built around it.
BUT we are getting ahead of ourselves as you first need to accept the model of religion that I put forth in the first paper before you can accept its application.
So, what studies and/or argument are you using to reject the position that there are cognitive differences between religious and nonreligious belief? Let me also repeat the quote that I provided: "Here we show that while religious and nonreligious thinking differentially engage broad regions of the frontal, parietal, and medial temporal lobes—and, hence, **appear quite distinct as modes of thought**—the difference between belief and disbelief appears to be content-independent." Emphasis added by myself.
I already told you - there are numerous studies in this area that indicate this "signature" is NOT a signature of religious belief. It is a signature of deeply held beliefs. It does not distinguish between those that are religious and those that are not. It applies just as much to political beliefs. And you would know this if you did any research on the topic - which you obviously haven't done.
DeleteNow go do some reading on cognitive science if you wish to stop sounding so ignorant.
> I already told you - there are numerous studies in this area that indicate this "signature" is NOT a signature of religious belief.
DeleteYes; you've stated that, twice, but you have not actually provided ONE study justifying your claim. In fact, you've just been talking out of your ass this entire time. Seriously, it must be nice to be an anonymous coward that people just believe has an understanding of the topic.
> Now go do some reading on cognitive science if you wish to stop sounding so ignorant.
I've done a lot of reading on the topic, but to make sure I filled in gaps, I also took Principles of fMRI 1 and Introduction to Neuroeconomics: How the Brain Makes Decisions, as indicated in my C.V.
And you think your STUPID theory of religious rejectionism is consistent with neuroscience? You are dreaming, kid. Now go away.
Delete> And you think your STUPID theory of religious rejectionism is consistent with neuroscience? You are dreaming, kid. Now go away.
ReplyDeleteI see you have still yet to provide a single example of those studies that you say contradict the existence of cognitive signatures of religious belief. Of course, I also said that those signatures alone are not enough. That's why I call them "religion like" beliefs.
I see that you're becoming increasingly aggressive. Could it be that it's becoming clearer that you, a person who hides behind a veil of anonymity, is a fraud?
A veil of anonymity? How many different names do you post under? And why do you do that? I've seen you present these "scientific papers" as is they are someone else's work that backs up the claims you make, when in fact they your own. I'm not using any tricks like that. I'm not pretending to be different people in different contexts, like you are.
DeleteIt's popularly known as sockpuppeting. But you knew that already.
DeleteA sock puppet is a fake account used to pretend that you are someone else. I post under a few monikers in order to separate conversations: political, scientific, geek, etc, but I do not pretend to be two separate people. Meanwhile, it is easy enough to know who I am. I do not hide it, and have repeatedly provided enough information to know a fair amount about my background.
ReplyDelete> I've seen you present these "scientific papers" as is they are someone else's work...
If you mean that I have not stated that they are written by myself, perhaps, but the author does not matter. What matters is the content.
Now, you have stated repeatedly that you have papers which contradict the findings of Sam Harris and other researchers that I've cited. So I am waiting. You have yet to provide a SINGLE citation.
Take your demands and shove them. I have pointed out a serious error in your position. I am not here to spoon-feed you scientific data. Do some research of your own. Unless, of course, you prefer to go on making the same mistakes. It doesn't bother me if you do. What I find bothersome is that you show up on blogs talking down to everyone there, and acting like you are better than all of them, which you clearly are not.
DeleteNo; you've made unsubstantiated claims. Part of your claim rests on the rejection of cognitive signatures which are related to religious belief. You say that there are studies which reject the distinction between religious and non-religious belief, and yet you provide zero citation.
Delete> Do some research of your own.
So let me get this straight. I provide a detailed analysis of the topic, citing dozens of peer reviewed sources, and you say "do research." Man you are such a fraud. Don't you feel embarrassed?
> What I find bothersome is that you show up on blogs talking down to everyone there, and acting like you are better than all of them, which you clearly are not.
Actually, (1) that's pretty much what you're doing, and (2) you quite literally mentioned me in this post and so I responded. (3) You are worthy of being talked down to.
Listen. You are obviously not very quick on the uptake, so I'll write this slowly.
DeleteThe studies DO NOT "reject the distinction between religious and non-religious belief", and that's NOT what I said. The signature they reveal is that of a kind of mental activity that is related to BOTH religious and non-religious beliefs. This signature does not indicate religious beliefs, which is your own claim that is disputed by the scientific data.
Now piss off, and don't bother me with your whining.
You repeatedly state that you have studies that you can reference which contradict my positions. Provide one. And if you do not reject that there is a distinction between religious and non-religious belief, then we're good anyway.
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