tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post2545851971868867370..comments2023-06-24T01:15:34.627-07:00Comments on The Skeptic Zone: im-skepticalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-49430271664715847362015-07-20T09:52:47.544-07:002015-07-20T09:52:47.544-07:00"What you want is to think of yourself as bei..."What you want is to think of yourself as being somehow heroic, and a Man of Courage in the face of Implacable Opposition"<br />- I said a modicum of courage, not heroic. That's all it takes for one to discard the security blanket that you have continued to cling to, well past the time when childish things should have been set aside.<br /><br />"Well, here's another scriptural quote for you, that is terribly apropos here: The wicked flee when no man pursueth. You are desiring to be attacked, when no one is doing so - makes you feel good."<br />- You are referring, of course, to the Christian persecution complex. And that gets us back to the original point of this post. It's what Victor feels when the takes umbrage at Dawkins' suggestion that ridiculous beliefs should be ridiculed. Those nasty gnus. They're so unfair to us. What did we ever do to deserve this horrendous treatment?<br /><br />"Prove it."<br />- Did you ever see a dead person? He's dead. Period. If you think he still lives, that's something you need to prove.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-23710679212343838542015-07-20T09:13:42.985-07:002015-07-20T09:13:42.985-07:00to interpret a biblical passage in the way your ch...<i>to interpret a biblical passage in the way your church prescribes</i><br /><br />I arrived at this interpretation all by myself. In all truthfulness, I've never read (or even seen) a single line about this Psalm from any Catholic source. It isn't so hard to do (and I totally agree with your comment that it requires no extraordinary perceptiveness) when you actually read the thing the way it was written, without imposing your 21st Century perspective on it.<br /><br /><i>It takes a modicum of courage</i><br /><br />Ahh... and now we get to the Heart of the Matter (as Graham Greene would say). What you want is to think of yourself as being somehow <i>heroic</i>, and <a href="http://www.stephenhicks.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/nietzsche-and-the-nazis-2006-12.jpg" rel="nofollow">a Man of Courage in the face of Implacable Opposition</a> . You <i>want</i> Psalm 14 to be some sort of attack on you, so you can pat yourself on the back about how you are nobly standing your ground against <a href="https://theird.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/the-good-samaritan_comentariojovem_121102-article.jpg" rel="nofollow">the bigots and the haters</a>.<br /><br />Well, here's another scriptural quote for you, that is terribly apropos here: <a href="https://oneintheirhearts.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/the-wicked-are-like-the-raging-sea-which-cannot-rest.jpg" rel="nofollow">The wicked flee when no man pursueth</a>. You are desiring to be attacked, when no one is doing so - makes you feel good.<br /><br /><i>When you're dead, you're dead.</i><br /><br />Prove it.planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-23585590781094410192015-07-20T08:47:46.819-07:002015-07-20T08:47:46.819-07:00I see what you see. But unlike you, I am able to d...I see what you see. But unlike you, I am able to distinguish reality from fantasy.<br /><br />It doesn't take any special "vision" to have a sense of awe when you contemplate the cosmos. It requires no extraordinary perceptiveness to interpret a biblical passage in the way your church prescribes. Anybody could blindly accept whatever their church tells them. It takes a modicum of courage to leave behind the comforting promises of ever-lasting life, to open your eyes for the first time, and see the world for what it is, rather than what you wish it to be.<br /><br />When you're dead, you're dead. That's reality. Your heaven is a fantasy. Your God is a fairy tale. Eternal life is an empty promise. You see what you want to see. You don't separate fiction from reality.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-69867504100641056672015-07-20T05:51:14.678-07:002015-07-20T05:51:14.678-07:00The Incredible String Band was definitely thinking...<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rRTvUzqCPo" rel="nofollow">The Incredible String Band</a> was definitely thinking about people like you when they sang, <a href="http://www.lyricsnmusic.com/the-incredibles/the-eyes-of-fate-lyrics/1266961" rel="nofollow">"You see what you see, you see seldom what is."</a>.<br /><br />planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-32747456875329615232015-07-19T20:48:57.227-07:002015-07-19T20:48:57.227-07:00"That's what Psalm 14 is all about. Any a..."That's what Psalm 14 is all about. Any attempt to turn it into some sort of dig at atheists simply guts it of its meaning."<br /><br />- Unless you're completely blind, you have to admit that it equates evil with a denial of God.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-41746891632225515282015-07-19T20:45:02.208-07:002015-07-19T20:45:02.208-07:00"I care not what they have to say."
- No..."I care not what they have to say."<br />- Nor what any reasonable person has to say. You only know what your church tell you.<br /><br />"And why? Because it's not even talking about them!"<br />- That's not at all what the article says.<br /><br />Q: Who says "There is no God?" A: atheists say that.<br />You can put your Catholic spin on it, but it says what it says.<br /><br />But this is a diversion from the topic at hand.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-76256073247768310322015-07-19T20:19:07.195-07:002015-07-19T20:19:07.195-07:00One last word (hopefully) on this subject. When yo...One last word (hopefully) on this subject. When you read Psalm 14 <i>holistically</i>, any idea of its being about atheists becomes nonsensical. First of all, look at the writer and his times. An unknown Hebrew during the Kingdom period of Israel, probably living in the Northern Kingdom. (Yes, I know the psalm is said to be "Of David", but that almost certainly means "in the style of" rather than actual authorship.) Like nearly all the Old Testament prophets, his concern was about injustice to the poor of the land. What we would today call an "exploiter class" is oppressing the general populace. They "eat up my people as they eat bread." They "would confound the plans of the poor." It's not some imaginary cabal of atheists grinding the poor into dust, but a very specific, very visible power structure, and the people who hold all power in the land. (In fact, far from being atheists, these "evildoers" were likely quite friendly to the religious authorities.)<br /><br />But Who precisely is the defender of the poor? Who is going to set things right? None other than the Lord! "The Lord is [the poor's] refuge." "The Lord [will] restore the fortunes of his people."<br /><br />And who is not taking this into account? The oppressors - the evildoers! They fear not God, they "do not call upon the Lord" (suggesting that, in contrast, the people they are oppressing do). And what does this make them? Fools! Their contemptuous sneer, "There is no God" cannot be understood through an anachronistic 21st Century lens. What they're saying is "there is no one we need fear, who will set things right, and favor the cause of those we are "eating up".<br /><br />The psalm is in two parts, mixed together. First, the oppressors of the poor are foolish in their delusion that they will not have to pay for their crimes. Second, the triumph of justice is sure.<br /><br /><i>That's</i> what Psalm 14 is all about. Any attempt to turn it into some sort of dig at atheists simply guts it of its meaning.<br />planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-85850230428796335832015-07-19T19:04:53.315-07:002015-07-19T19:04:53.315-07:00Your first link is to a bunch of Protestant commen...Your first link is to a bunch of Protestant commentators associated with Liberty University, who do not speak for me, and whom I have no obligation to defend. I care not what they have to say.<br /><br />Your second link actually backs up what I am saying. To use Psalm 14 as a dig against atheists is totally inappropriate. (And why? Because it's not even talking about them!)<br /><br /><i>someone who takes the words for exactly what they say</i><br /><br />As good a description as any of what I am doing here.planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-34390202271114554152015-07-19T18:39:38.272-07:002015-07-19T18:39:38.272-07:00or d) someone who takes the words for exactly what...or d) someone who takes the words for exactly what they say.<br /><br /><br />http://www.godvine.com/bible/psalms/14-1<br />http://www.atheistrev.com/2009/04/fool-says-in-his-heart.html<br /><br />The psalm doesn't refer exclusively to atheists (especially since there were none at the time it was written. What it does is to equate everything bad and evil to the denial of god. In modern times, this passage is definitely used by theists as a put-down of atheists.<br />im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-79302803824946386272015-07-19T18:16:30.431-07:002015-07-19T18:16:30.431-07:00Psalm 14
Verse 1 is like a blare of trumpets, ann...Psalm 14<br /><br />Verse 1 is like a blare of trumpets, announcing the theme: "The man who fears not retribution is a fool."<br /><br />Verses 2 through 4 identify exactly who the psalmist is referring to - evildoers. The key line is in verse 4, "all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread."<br /><br />The second half of verse 4 says clearly that the evildoers fail to call upon the Lord - <b>NOT</b> the reverse (as you have confusingly interpreted it) - that those who do not recognize the Lord are evildoers. You got it totally backwards.<br /><br />Verses 5 through 7 explain why the evildoers (<i>not atheists</i>) are fools - because retribution for their crimes is inevitable, and ultimate justice is certain.<br /><br />Psalm 14 has <b>nothing whatsoever</b> to do with atheists. To even imagine so, one would have to either be<br />a) a person incapable of understanding plain English,<br />b) a person not making the effort to do so, or<br />c) an inattentive reader.planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-89872092070647084162015-07-19T17:44:43.270-07:002015-07-19T17:44:43.270-07:00"Read the Psalm. It has nothing to do with at..."Read the Psalm. It has nothing to do with atheists, and everything to do with evildoers. If you truly cannot understand that, then perhaps I do have reason to ridicule you."<br />- Yes, it's not only calling atheists fools, it's also calling them evil or corrupt. The only thing I can't understand is why you think it has nothing to do with atheists. It's <i>about</i> atheists.<br /><br />"And yes, I agree 100% with the cardinal. It is less than fully human to be an atheist, in the same way that it is less than fully human to have no appreciation for the arts, or music, or love. That's not ridicule, but just a bald statement of fact."<br />- Nothing contemptuous, dismissive, or derisive about calling atheists less than human, is there? You might think this is simply a statement of fact. But I could just as well say that people who believe in theistic fairy tales lack the intelligence of a rational human being. That's not ridicule - just a simple statement of fact.<br /><br />im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-61461336244070552512015-07-19T16:36:29.770-07:002015-07-19T16:36:29.770-07:00Do you not ridicule atheists
No, I most emphatica...<i>Do you not ridicule atheists</i><br /><br />No, I most emphatically do not. No more than I would ever dream of ridiculing a homeless person, or someone with a speech impediment.<br /><br /><i>That's a creative interpretation of what it plainly says.</i><br /><br />Read the Psalm. It has nothing to do with atheists, and everything to do with evildoers. If you truly cannot understand that, then perhaps I <i>do</i> have reason to ridicule you.<br /><br />And yes, I agree 100% with the cardinal. It is less than fully human to be an atheist, in the same way that it is less than fully human to have no appreciation for the arts, or music, or love. That's not ridicule, but just a bald statement of fact.<br /><br />When Shakespeare wrote<br /><br /><i>The man that hath no music in himself,<br />Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,<br />Is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils;<br />The motions of his spirit are dull as night<br />And his affections dark as Erebus:<br />Let no such man be trusted.</i><br /><br />was he ridiculing people with no ear for music? (Answer: No.)planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-51533035046673836402015-07-19T15:16:09.282-07:002015-07-19T15:16:09.282-07:00"That passage has absolutely nothing to do wi..."That passage has absolutely nothing to do with atheism."<br />- Wow. That's a creative interpretation of what it plainly says.<br /><br />"As for the Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor quote where's the ridicule in that?"<br />- Calling atheists less than human may not sound like ridicule to you, but then you're not the object of the cardinal's insults.<br /><br />And finally, your little quip about Hamlet just drives home the point. Do you not ridicule atheists for not seeing the things in "heaven and earth"?<br /><br />I think I see the issue here. For people like you, it is so normal to insult and ridicule atheists, you don't even realize you're doing it. You just think, "How dare those gnus say anything bad about us? It's totally uncalled for."im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-48857932067647612582015-07-19T13:48:21.431-07:002015-07-19T13:48:21.431-07:00Don't you even read what I write?
Of course I...<i>Don't you even read what I write?</i><br /><br />Of course I do - that's why I responded.<br /><br /><i>"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."</i><br /><br />That passage has absolutely nothing to do with atheism. Now you're the one not reading. Psalm 14 is a condemnation of the oppressors of the poor, "the evildoers<br />who eat up my people as they eat bread." The psalmist is saying that they are fools for thinking they will not face retribution (i.e., God) for their crimes. Atheism doesn't even figure in here. If that's all you've got, then we may safely say that The Bible does not ridicule atheists.<br /><br />As for the Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor quote where's the ridicule in that? He's just saying it like it is. No ridicule, but rather heartfelt pity, spoken out of love. You'd do well (you: specifically) to take what he says to heart. Heck, I myself have said much the same to you several times. To be an atheist is to willingly cast one's self into a prison of your own making. There's a Great Big World out here that you've shut your eyes and ears tight to, lest a ray of light or a sound of music break past your iron walls of self seclusion.<br /><br />Recently over on the <i>Strange Notions</i> blog, there was an interesting article that pointed out that the atheist materialist would answer Hamlet, when he says "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy," with "No, Hamlet, there are less."planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-37604765995287202102015-07-19T13:23:48.835-07:002015-07-19T13:23:48.835-07:00Don't you even read what I write? "The f...Don't you even read what I write? "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."<br /><br />If you want some modern-day Catholic intolerance, try Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor:<br /><br /><br /><br /> "Man is by nature and vocation a religious being. Coming from God, going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God." <br /><br /> "There is something not totally human if you leave out transcendent [God] and you [atheists] are not fully human. They have an impoverished understanding to what it is to be human. We are all made by God." im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-23857790701915149202015-07-19T12:52:37.320-07:002015-07-19T12:52:37.320-07:00Huh? The Bible? Where does it even mention atheist...Huh? The Bible? Where does it even mention atheists? Sure, there's a great deal of ridiculing of idolatry. Is that what you're thinking of?planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-82815279871643052402015-07-19T12:44:12.495-07:002015-07-19T12:44:12.495-07:00Let's start with the bible. Then we can move ...Let's start with the bible. Then we can move on to Catholics such as Augustine. Let's face it - this has been the standard attitude for ages, as I have pointed out numerous times.<br />im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-91640324604256872022015-07-19T12:11:31.287-07:002015-07-19T12:11:31.287-07:00Exactly when did any Catholic leader call for a ca...Exactly when did any Catholic leader call for a campaign of ridicule against atheists? Now your side's spokesperson is on record for doing so, but I can't think of an equivalent statement by, for instance, the Pope. (And I care not for what any Protestant says, so don't even try to quote one.)<br /><br />No hypocrisy, sheer or otherwise, on my side.planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-24669665814031517612015-07-19T12:05:36.518-07:002015-07-19T12:05:36.518-07:00You obviously didn't listen to what I said. W...You obviously didn't listen to what I said. Why do you think it's OK for Christians to do these things (and of course, there is much more than the use of a derogatory term going on), but not for atheists? That's sheer hypocrisy. im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-77738640417777817592015-07-19T11:19:41.614-07:002015-07-19T11:19:41.614-07:00I wouldn't take too much offense if I were you...I wouldn't take too much offense if I were you. After all, it's one heck of a lot preferable to your use of bigot and hater against Christians who are anything but. I'll start worrying about Victor's use of gnu when you swear off the use of those terms. Otherwise, I'd advise you to grow a thick skin.planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-7610893677461610422015-07-19T10:35:46.306-07:002015-07-19T10:35:46.306-07:00Yes, it was - at first. But it quickly became a t...Yes, it was - at first. But it quickly became a term of derision and ridicule used by theists. These days, that's the manner in which it is used. It's like so many other derogatory terms - a word that started out as something not intended to be offensive, but the derogatory usage has become dominant.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-26279551418919078962015-07-19T10:09:26.857-07:002015-07-19T10:09:26.857-07:00You do it when you call people "gnus".
...<i>You do it when you call people "gnus".</i><br /><br />It is my understanding that "gnu" was thought up by, and popularized by, atheists themselves.planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-27390060020329932492015-07-19T09:26:49.169-07:002015-07-19T09:26:49.169-07:00OK, so you think it's some kind of fad to call...OK, so you think it's some kind of fad to call bigots what they are. In <a href="http://theskepticzone.blogspot.com/2015/04/religious-bigotry-revisited-discussions.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a> I gave my definition of what bigotry is, and I attempted to show how certain religious people actually meet that definition by virtue of what they say and do. This isn't just a matter of slinging names or epithets.<br /><br />Plantinga, on the other hand. appears to be saying that it doesn't take any courage for an atheist to come out in the open, and he has no justification for his claim. Has he ever been an atheist and subjected to the kinds of abuse that they often face in their daily lives and their workplaces? Do people like you and Plantinga have any idea what it's like to be a hated minority? I don't think so.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-38798551814435245512015-07-19T09:10:30.020-07:002015-07-19T09:10:30.020-07:00Victor says:
"I must ask, isn't he doing...Victor says:<br /><br />"I must ask, isn't he doing EXACTLY what the Freethoughtpedia says is the Appeal to Ridicule, a fallacy? Getting people to the right result is more important to him than fostering critical thinking and getting to the right result for the right reason. I do find this offensive, which is why my reactions to New Atheists are different from my reactions to atheists of another stripe."<br /><br />No, Victor, what he's doing is talking about the use of ridicule, not engaging in a logical fallacy - not actually ridiculing anything. If you want to say that Dawkins is committing a fallacy, you need to come up with an example where he actually does what you accuse him of. As I pointed out in my post, this is what theists do all the time, and they have been doing it for ages. You do it when you call people "gnus". So this really seems like a case of throwing stones inside your glass house.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-9375321939138181242015-07-19T09:08:14.413-07:002015-07-19T09:08:14.413-07:00which of these "fads" do I follow?
The ...<i>which of these "fads" do I follow?</i><br /><br />The fad I was speaking of is the currently fashionable one of calling everyone who disagrees with the new political orthodoxy a "bigot" or a "hater". That is where you personally, im-skeptical, are truly a sheep - not thinking for yourself, but just going along with the crowd.<br /><br />Read Victor's posting on <a href="http://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2015/07/plantinga-on-courage-of-atheists.html" rel="nofollow">Plantinga on the "courage" of atheists</a> - it's quite relevant here. planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.com