tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post5516217359891885720..comments2023-06-24T01:15:34.627-07:00Comments on The Skeptic Zone: im-skepticalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-9372717201551964542015-10-29T14:07:11.214-07:002015-10-29T14:07:11.214-07:00By the way, were you aware that after WW II ended,...By the way, were you aware that after WW II ended, the church assisted Nazis in escaping prosecution in Germany by obtaining them passports (issued by the Vatican) and passage to places like South America?im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-75063503776594260242015-10-29T13:55:10.489-07:002015-10-29T13:55:10.489-07:00The information I presented is historical. Yours ...The information I presented is historical. Yours is church propaganda.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-82667972917259156552015-10-29T12:20:52.452-07:002015-10-29T12:20:52.452-07:00For the real story on the Church's opposition ...For the <b>real</b> story on the Church's opposition (and indeed resistance) to Nazism, you ought to read <a href="http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/4321/a_black_legend_refuted.aspx" rel="nofollow">this</a>, instead of relying on the conspiracy hate sites you seem so fond of.planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-3335424644618571802015-10-25T16:42:21.620-07:002015-10-25T16:42:21.620-07:00There seems to be a strange relationship between t...There seems to be a strange relationship between theist and science. I think it's true that they are afraid of falling into irrelevance as science continues to provide natural explanations for things that were formerly the realm of God. Hence we have their claims that science <i>can't possibly</i> investigate the realm of the immaterial - that there are non-overlapping magisteria. This seems to be a desperate attempt to fence off their own territory, and declare that science is irrelevant in this realm. And it leads to charges of scientism aimed at those who see science as the best path to knowledge.<br /><br />On the other hand, theists would love to find scientific corroboration for their beliefs. They eagerly jump at any scientific information, such as the big bang as confirmation of God's creation. They look to ID science, and establish <a href="http://www.ctns.org/" rel="nofollow">institutions</a> dedicated to explore relationships between science and theology. Even <a href="http://www.reasonablefaith.org/what-is-the-relation-between-science-and-religion" rel="nofollow">theistic philosophers</a> are getting in on the game.<br /><br />Hedging their bets, perhaps?im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-1298417866614431452015-10-25T14:56:35.656-07:002015-10-25T14:56:35.656-07:00It seems to me that one of the key differences tha...It seems to me that one of the key differences that warrant the title "New Atheist" is the idea that the existence of God question is deemed to be a scientific question and not just a philosophical question. The old school atheists would argue that none of the agruments put forward for the existence of God were valid or sound but they didn't dispute that the arguments were the only way to intellectually address the question. This gave the existence question a certain gravitas. This gravitas lent respect to religion even when all the arguments and logic were empty.<br /><br />Changing the ground rules away from Philosophy to Science, relegated the God question to the same realm as elan vital, the aether and philogiston. This is the big threat, not so much that they will be proved wrong but that they will be not taken seriously or just forgotten. jdhueyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14548783175350394626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-57990290482076490782015-10-25T13:59:39.788-07:002015-10-25T13:59:39.788-07:00I didn't 'fall back' upon foul languag...I didn't 'fall back' upon foul language and insult. It was supplemental to the argument, an honest characterisation of apologists', like Plank's, misperceived worldview. More's the point, one knows when an argument has been lost and, in this case, comprehensively exposed as a sham, is when the interlocutor opts out of the argument and bleats 'foul language and insult'. <br /><br />Incidentally, 'bullshit' and 'crapola' are synonyms for the bunkum Plank tries to claim as historical. If it looks like crapola, reads like crapola, smells like crapola, ................<br /><br />Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-75106497695878551532015-10-25T09:56:42.896-07:002015-10-25T09:56:42.896-07:00Perhaps I should just stick to calling it what it ...Perhaps I should just stick to calling it what it is: bullshit.<br /><br />Now why don't you tell me which is worse - your statement <i>"But give an atheist political power, and the experience of the past century shows that everyone, believer and atheist alike, would have serious cause for fear"</i>, which is not only an insult, but an outright lie - or my saying that it's bullshit.<br /><br />You want to talk about intellectual bankruptcy? How about your utter refusal to recognize the truth, when it has been handed to you on a silver platter? How about your willingness to believe whatever bullshit your church tells you, without question? And on top of that, you tell me, <i>"So much for your vaunted "skepticism". What a fraud!"</i> You don't have a clue what skepticism means.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-864006069090549092015-10-25T06:49:53.200-07:002015-10-25T06:49:53.200-07:00The surest sign of intellectual bankruptcy on one ...The surest sign of intellectual bankruptcy on one side in a debate is when its proponents fall back upon foul language and insult. The repeated scatological references by you and Papalinton indicate only that neither of you have anything of substance to bring to the table. You mistake vulgarity for an argument.planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-46550828240831925622015-10-25T02:06:07.405-07:002015-10-25T02:06:07.405-07:00I've added the one-click access for both Coel...I've added the one-click access for both <a href="https://coelsblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/nazi-racial-ideology-was-religious-creationist-and-opposed-to-darwinism/" rel="nofollow">Coel Hllier</a> and <a href="http://www.shc.edu/theolibrary/resources/04German.htm" rel="nofollow">Gerald Darring</a> so that Plank has no excuse not to explore bona fide historical data on the Catholic/Nazism relationship. <br /><br />But for him then it was never about pursuit of the truth. Rather, it is about propagating the revisionist post-hoc catholicized 'trooth'™. Is it any wonder that Christian crapola is now being seen for what really it is, Christian crapola.Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-61365397756038481882015-10-24T19:16:07.562-07:002015-10-24T19:16:07.562-07:00The lies begin in paragraph 3. The Nazis and the ...The lies begin in paragraph 3. The Nazis and the church came to an agreement, known as the concordat. The primary enemy that both were opposed to was communism.<br /><br />And I still doubt that you will ever read any real historical accounts like what I provided, because if you did, you's see what a bunch of revisionist crap the church is feeding you.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-12000851854556771372015-10-24T18:53:02.766-07:002015-10-24T18:53:02.766-07:00I ask again. You labeled the page you linked to (a...I ask again. You labeled the page you linked to (at 4:01 PM) "revisionist crap". I found not one word in it to be false. What did you find on that page that caused you to so characterize it? Not another link, but what in that page?planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-8963419417909699152015-10-24T18:47:51.308-07:002015-10-24T18:47:51.308-07:00You want to hear some truth for a change? I serio...You want to hear some truth for a change? I seriously doubt it. But just in case, here are a couple of well-researched articles about the Nazis. It's easy to see the difference. The Catholic revisionist article that you find so much to your liking contains absolutely no sources or references. There's a reason for that: because it's not based on documented history. These articles, on the other hand contain actual historical information with references that you can check for yourself.<br /><br />First, this one by Coel Hellier describes the religious nature of Nazi ideology.<br />https://coelsblog.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/nazi-racial-ideology-was-religious-creationist-and-opposed-to-darwinism/<br /><br />Then, Gerald Darring describes the position of the Catholic church during thr time of the Nazi regime, and changes that came about afterward.<br />http://www.shc.edu/theolibrary/resources/04German.htm<br /><br />im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-91555517796893423402015-10-24T17:44:11.616-07:002015-10-24T17:44:11.616-07:00And by the way, thanks for alerting me to the exis...And by the way, thanks for alerting me to the existence of this site. I had never seen it before, and didn't know it existed. I've now bookmarked it, and will be using it in the future!<br /><br />See, you <i>are</i> doing some good!planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-91522764475057937862015-10-24T17:42:02.160-07:002015-10-24T17:42:02.160-07:00I just read through your latest link. (For once, n...I just read through your latest link. (For once, not a conspiratorial hate site.) I found not one single untruth anywhere in it. Could you kindly point one out, so I can see why you label it "revisionist crap"?planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-39488792985096612702015-10-24T16:01:42.457-07:002015-10-24T16:01:42.457-07:00It's no wonder that planks is so clueless abou...It's no wonder that planks is so clueless about history. <a href="http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/history/nazi-policy-and-the-catholic-church.html" rel="nofollow">This</a> is the kind of revisionist crap he gets from his own church. And there is plenty more where that came from.<br /><br />But the historical information is available to those who want to know the truth. Obviously, planks doesn't.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-78659759788436763742015-10-24T14:32:02.918-07:002015-10-24T14:32:02.918-07:00How blinkered, indeed blighted, Plank's histor...How blinkered, indeed blighted, Plank's history of the relationship between nazism and christianity? Given his sources come straight from the hyperactive army of Christian apologists who have desperately attempted to peddle that revisionist 'historical' mythos since the end of WW2, it comes as no surprise. The ubiquitous art and long historical pedigree of 'lying for jesus' makes it a not unknown character flaw of christian retroactive revisionism.<br /><br />Doris L. Bergen writes in her “Nazism and Christianity: Partners and
Rivals? A Response to Richard Steigmann-Gall, The Holy Reich. Nazi
Conceptions of Christianity, 1919–1945″ (Journal of Contemporary History Copyright © 2007 SAGE Publications, London, Thousand Oaks, CA and New Delhi, Vol 42(1), 25–33. ISSN 0022–0094.DOI: 10.1177/0022009407071629)<br /><br />“Richard Steigmann-Gall has vigorously argued (following here some other scholars) that ‘the insistence that Nazism was an anti-Christian movement has been one of the most enduring truisms of the past fifty years’.<br />While Bergen generally agrees, she identifies certain weaknesses both in the analytical framework and the empirical adequacy of Steigmann-Gall´ work. In effect, Bergen argues that Steigmann-Gall both overplays and underplays his case. One cannot make any justice to the insights of either Steigmann-Gall or Bergen, but the following crucial point stressed by Bergen should be widely known:<br />“The overwhelming majority of Germans remained baptized, tax-paying
members of the official Christian Churches throughout the 12 years of nazi rule. In hindsight, it may seem impossible to reconcile the vicious hatreds of nazism with Christianity’s injunction to ‘turn the other cheek’ or to square the circle of nazi anti-semitism with Christianity’s obvious origins in Judaism. But the vast majority of Germans — over 95 per cent by the last count in 1939 —evidently had no problem doing so.”<br />Indeed, the Nazis could never have overrun Germany except by appealing to interests, beliefs, hopes and fears of Germans who viewed themselves as good Christians. The Nazis did not come to power thanks to some imagined ideological void following the acceptance of “God is dead”. They came to power on the shoulders of German Christianity.”<br /><br />Just as his belief in a god is delusional, so too is Plank's history of Christianity in Germany in 1933-1945. Christians did not stop Nazism. They aided and abetted its rise to power. Plank's abject denialism of this fact alone simply underscores the delusional character of his worldview. <br /><br />Is it any wonder the smell of christian bullshit is becoming worse.<br />Papalintonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03818630173726146048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-85292887980819516712015-10-23T16:26:20.291-07:002015-10-23T16:26:20.291-07:00It really doesn't bother me that my choice of ...It really doesn't bother me that my choice of reading material fails to meet your approval. I have spent significant time, made an effort to learn about theistic belief systems. And speaking of challenging your preconceived notions, I see absolutely no evidence that you have ever done that.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-61602883970020829842015-10-23T15:40:56.332-07:002015-10-23T15:40:56.332-07:00It's amazing what you'll "never have ...It's amazing what you'll "never have the time to read". Earlier, you dismissed Dante's <i>Divine Comedy</i> as beneath your notice, a work universally described as the greatest literary achievement of all time. But you don't have time for it. Now I give you the autobiographies of the only two Americans referenced by Pope Francis in his speech to Congress. But you don't have time for them. And the immortal words of Alfred Delp, <i>penned while he was awaiting his Nazi executioner</i>, can't find a place in the "skeptical" mind of someone who denies the contradiction between Christianity and Nazism.<br /><br />What can I say? You've demonstrated to the world, on your very own website, that you have zero interest in hearing anything that disturbs your neat little thought bubble. God forbid you might have to challenge your preconceived notions!planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-50434424059092079062015-10-23T15:32:15.847-07:002015-10-23T15:32:15.847-07:00I haven't read those stories, and I don't ...I haven't read those stories, and I don't see the point in taking the time, when there is so much more interesting material that I'll probably never have the time to read.<br /><br />I've shown conclusively that the claims you made here are wrong. Your knowledge of history is abysmal, and your arguments are riddled with fallacies. <br /><br />And now you're dismissing my skepticism. I'm devastated.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-84781260761351483152015-10-23T13:27:26.530-07:002015-10-23T13:27:26.530-07:00You never even bothered to learn what I was linkin...You never even bothered to learn what I was linking to, did you? Not one of those books was "apologetic". All three of them were autobiographies.<br /><br />So much for your vaunted "skepticism". What a fraud!planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-89381500474917024582015-10-23T12:15:40.575-07:002015-10-23T12:15:40.575-07:00And stay away from hate sites - all they do is spr...<i>And stay away from hate sites - all they do is spread Darkness Visible.</i><br />Fine words from someone who gets his own information from a hate site. Your own accusation about atheists comes directly from the mouths of hateful liars. Remember these words?<br /> EVERY atheist who has had the political power to do so has killed believers.<br /><br /> Every damn time.<br /><br /> Can this be conincidence?<br /><br />Don't tell me about where I should get my information. All I did was link to some photographs from a site that you don't like. You, on the other hand, repeat the LIES you get from one of your favorite theistic hate sites. And you've been defending those lies despite clear evidence to the contrary.<br /><br />And you can link to all the apologetic crap you like. I know damn well what your church is like, and I have no use for it.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-69924434896530457102015-10-23T11:21:27.571-07:002015-10-23T11:21:27.571-07:00They appear in the website you linked to, and are ...They appear in the website you linked to, and are indicative of the reliability and objectivity of everything found there. All your linking to it demonstrates is your apparent fascination with conspiracy and hate sites. If this is where you are gleaning your information about the Catholic Church from, then it's no wonder you are so pathetically misinformed.<br /><br />Really, before you post another word about Catholicism, you ought to read (slowly, and in their entirety) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Storey_Mountain" rel="nofollow">this</a>, <a href="https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Long_Loneliness.html?id=1Q_5F9UQf_8C" rel="nofollow">this</a>, and <a href="http://www.ignatius.com/Products/AOH-P/advent-of-the-heart.aspx" rel="nofollow">this</a>. And stay away from hate sites - all they do is spread Darkness Visible.planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-71454159512487073062015-10-23T10:59:14.177-07:002015-10-23T10:59:14.177-07:00This from a person who links to a website that inc...<i>This from a person who links to a website that includes this priceless gem?</i><br /><br />Those are the words of Tony Alamo, and they do not appear on any page I linked to. However, I did link to a page from his site that simply shows pictures of Nazi Catholics. The pictures don't lie, regardless of what you think of the guy who posted them. This is an <i>ad hominem</i> fallacy. The FACT is that there were Catholics in the Nazi regime, and there were Catholic supporters of the Nazi regime. And this is in direct contradiction to your assertion.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-63805128803458946502015-10-23T10:39:03.614-07:002015-10-23T10:39:03.614-07:00Fairy tales? Fairy Tales? FAIRY TALES?
This from ...Fairy tales? <i>Fairy Tales?</i> <i><b>FAIRY TALES?</b></i><br /><br />This from a person who links to a website that includes this priceless gem?<br /><br /><i>Because of her age-old desire to control the world government and church, the serpent-like Vatican has infested the world and the U.S. government with so many of her zealous, highly-trained and dedicated Jesuit devotees, that she now controls the United Nations (which she created), the White House, Congress, every state, federal, civic, and social government agency, including the U.S. Department of Labor, the IRS, the FBI, the Supreme Court, judicial systems, the armed forces, state, federal, and other police, also the international banking and federal reserve systems (called the Illuminati and Agentur), labor unions, the Mafia, and most of the heavyweight news media.</i><br /><br /><i>This</i> is where you go, to get your "historical facts"? And you have the nerve to lecture <i>anyone</i> about believing in "fairy tales"?<br /><br />Tell me now, do you also believe in the Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy?planks lengthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01176715815596833639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-221547022510742794.post-42648987132373636032015-10-23T10:18:41.745-07:002015-10-23T10:18:41.745-07:00All they prove is that the situation is far more c...All they prove is that the situation is far more complex than you have made it out to be. Of course there was resistance to the Nazis from Catholics. But there is no denying that Catholics comprised a significant portion of the Nazi leadership. Your claim was that the Nazis were not even Christian, when in fact they were predominantly Christian, and about 1/3 of them were Catholic.<br /><br />Here are some pictures for you : http://alamoministries.com/content/english/Antichrist/nazigallery/photogallery.html<br /><br />If you want to know about the church's official position with respect to the Nazi regime, read about the Papal Nuncio to Germany during the time.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Orsenigo<br /><br />Like I said, you can believe whatever fairy tales you like (including apologetic revisionism), but that doesn't make them true.im-skepticalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08267710618719895303noreply@blogger.com